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Author Topic:   Micro v. Macro Creationist Challenge
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 13 of 252 (812340)
06-16-2017 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by aristotle
06-16-2017 4:19 AM


Aristotle writes:

Do you truly think it fair expecting creationists to prove the changes were not the result of mutations, when you can't prove that they were?

We don't expect creationists to be able to prove anything - our expections are very, very low based on prior observation.

But yes, if you could show that mutations do not contribute positively to the evolutionary process by using actual research - and not simply quote mining - that would be a very valuable addition to science.

Btw, it's always useful to know with a newbie creationist, how old do you think the earth is?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by aristotle, posted 06-16-2017 4:19 AM aristotle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by aristotle, posted 06-16-2017 7:01 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 44 by ICANT, posted 06-27-2017 2:19 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 23 of 252 (812412)
06-16-2017 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by aristotle
06-16-2017 7:01 AM


Aristotle writes:

Again, I ask you how you can ask me to show that mutations were not the cause of our evolution, when you can't prove that they did?

It's quite easy, the scientific concensus is that humans evolved from earlier organisms and that a major factor in that, as in all evolutionary processes, is mutation. Mutation has been observed and we find genetic differences between our ourselves and our ape cousins that have been caused by mutation so we form a conlusion.

So over to you - tell the world's scientists we're they went wrong.

Again you pigeonhole me as a creationist, it shows your extremely narrow view.

Forgive me, it's just that I've never met anyone arguing against evolution that is not also a creationist. I note that you're not denying that you are one though?

I don't know how old the earth is

Why not, science does?

I'm think that you're walking like a duck, quacking like a duck and also ducking and diving like a duck - well you know the rest... But do put me right.

and I'm certainly not as arrogant as evolutionists to think that I know how life was created.

No evolutionist knows how life was created - or even if it was created at all, so you're in good company here at least.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by aristotle, posted 06-16-2017 7:01 AM aristotle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 34 of 252 (813325)
06-26-2017 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by CRR
06-26-2017 12:23 AM


Re: advantageous mutations
CRR writes:

Ian Musgrave in Haldane's non-dilemma does not dispute this limit but argues that humans are ~240 genes away from the last common ancestor and ~594 genes away from the chimp. However this ignores beneficial changes in the regulatory DNA which could well have been an order of magnitude, or more, higher.

This limit has led to neutral theory which allows a much larger number of neutral mutations to be fixed in the same time. However most neutral mutations have no affect on the phenotype (that's why they're neutral) so we are really stuck with the 1,667 limit for humans, and perhaps 2,500 for chimps, explaining differences between the two species. These numbers reduce if the time to the last common ancestor is less than 10 million years.

What is it about you creationist that make you have to distort what scientists say? Do you think we won't check? Musgrave actually says:

quote:
The above study only covered protein coding genes, not regulatory sequences, and most biologists expect that changes in regulatory sequences played an important role in evolution. Getting at the number of beneficial mutations in regulatory genes that have been fixed by natural selection is a lot harder, but it seems like around 100 regulatory genes may have been selected (Donaldson & Gottgens 2006, Kehrer-Sawatzki & Cooper 2007). Again, even if we set the number of regulatory genes that have been selected as the same number as the most wildly optimistic estimate of protein coding genes fixed by natural selection, then we end up with 960 fixed beneficial mutations, below ReMine’s calculation of Haldane’s limit [5]. This means Haldane’s dilemma is irrelevant to human evolution.

Conclusion: Haldane’s dilemma has never been a problem for evolution, but the technical nature of the arguments involved made it difficult to clearly demonstrate anti-evolutionists misuse of the “dilemma”. Also, the difficulty in getting the original papers meant that the distortion of Haldane’s work by anti-evolutionists was not obvious.

Now Walter ReMine’s claim that 1667 beneficial mutations is too few to generate a philosopher poet from the common ancestor of chimps and humans is shown to be trivially false from comparison of the human and chimp gemone. As this claim was the keystone of ReMine’s argument, Haldane’s dilemma should disappear as an anti-evolutionist claim.



Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by CRR, posted 06-26-2017 12:23 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by CRR, posted 06-26-2017 7:37 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 45 of 252 (813456)
06-27-2017 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ICANT
06-27-2017 2:19 PM


ICANT writes:

A lot older than you do.

I remember, your the one that thinks it's trillions of years old!

So we have Faith at 6,000 years, CRR at the normal 3.4bn (I think) Dredge says somewhere between 6,000 and billions of years, and you at trillions.

It as confusing as remembering all your different and contradictory religious beliefs. You should really have it in your signatures so we know what versions we arguing against.

And my question about the Mountains of Ararat being where the Ark set down but you claiming they were only formed 100 years later?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ICANT, posted 06-27-2017 2:19 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by CRR, posted 06-28-2017 12:11 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 47 of 252 (813489)
06-28-2017 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by CRR
06-28-2017 12:11 AM


CRR writes:

CRR at ~6200 years.

And there was I thinking you're the sensible one.....that is an untenable position.

Sometimes I talk about millions or billions of years within the evolutionary frame of reference.

Totally disingenuously it turns out.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by CRR, posted 06-28-2017 12:11 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 54 of 252 (813958)
07-03-2017 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by mike the wiz
07-02-2017 12:46 PM


So what's new here Mike?

So far it's just the same old irreducable complexity stuff - you can't get this lung from that lung..... it's a debunked argument.

I would say the true burden of proof is upon those saying that micro evolution, given enough time, will lead to man from molecules.

About 150 years ago that was the case. However, the concensus has shifted somewhat. You're now with the flat-earth brigade - only fundamental creationists believe that evolution is false so it's up to them to prove it.

The ToE is falsifyable, go falsify it with evidence, not argument, evidence.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by mike the wiz, posted 07-02-2017 12:46 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by mike the wiz, posted 07-03-2017 8:20 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 55 of 252 (813959)
07-03-2017 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by mike the wiz
07-03-2017 5:57 AM


Mike writes:

For me it's tautologous that there was always going to be other species we as humans would be "closest" to anatomically. This would still be true if there is no macro evolution, which is why it is tautologous, because mathematically, in a world of millions of species we are bound to be similar in some ways to some others. We are mammals yes, with a skeleton, but there is a reason for that is there not? For example, would we expect a butterfly to have bones?

The thing is, creationists tell us that there's something special about people. They're made in god's image, they have souls etc. I understand their disappointment in finding that we're physically almost identical to a chimp and that the soul isn't actually real but that is what you'd expect if evolution was true.

If evolution wasn't true we could find all sorts of things that would surprise us. Just for example, if your god wanted to make us 'special' he could have used silica instead of carbon as H.sapien's base. Or just given us an entirely different genome from anything else on earth. Now that WOULD have made us take notice. There are any number of models that would be better for a designer if evolution wasn't his plan. For a start why introduce sexual reproduction if you didn't want change and variety - cloning is a far better idea. Why allow mutations to change the design?

The 'tautology' you're finding is a result of evolution being accurate.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by mike the wiz, posted 07-03-2017 5:57 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Pressie, posted 07-03-2017 7:25 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 59 by mike the wiz, posted 07-03-2017 8:06 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 62 of 252 (813975)
07-03-2017 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by mike the wiz
07-03-2017 8:06 AM


Mike writes:

The "special" claim is a term atheists love to hang on to

Actually, I'm just reporting back what I'm told by believers. The difficulty in discussing stuff with creationists is that we don't know what you believe - you all believe something different. But I'm pretty sure you all think we're 'special' and apart from other animals. If you're now claiming otherwise, then the thread ends here.

but the main point with the bible is that it says we are made in God's image, and what is God?

You, like me, have absolutely no knowledge about that.

I think it's a superficial claim to only compare anatomy or only compare genetics because that presumes that the only difference between chimps and humans are differences in those areas. Nevertheless monkeys and apes share many things that humans don't share with them anyway, we speak, have sentient personas, can think abstractly, are fully bipedal, have the software for speech, don't have dense animal hair, etc....

I understand why you would prefer to ignore the fact that we are physically very close to other apes, but it presents you with the entire problem. Because of that fact - and all the other facts that build the ToE - the evidence leads us to conclude that we are descended from an ape line. If we *were* actually different, then you'd have an argument but as we're not, you're stuck with explaining the similarities away as 'superficial'. Yet it's these very similarities that lead to the conclusion. God has played you a tricky hand hasn't he?


So you've taken Hollywood's version of religion which describes a "soul", and applied that to creationists, but informed creationists know that a living soul includes the physical miracle of life. We argue that when the living soul dies the spirit which is supernatural, remains. To say we have "found out" this spirit isn't real, well - no, you have made a statement
based on argumentum ad ignorantiam, but personally I would not expect necessarily to find direct evidence of a supernatural spirit in some natural form after death since the bible doesn't say we linger as a soul with natural residues for science testing.

Sorry Mike, you can't arm wave thousands of years worth of beliefs away just because science has now proved them wrong and you have to get cuter. We had 'scientists' attempting to physically weigh the soul only 100 years ago. People thought it was real. It's a pity for your argument, but that hope faded away too; now you're left with semantics.

It seems you are just making assertions and claims here which creationists wouldn't even agree with, which are predicated on things you only half understand. (Half might be a little generous).

Then before you open any thread, you need to start by saying what *your* particular flavour of creationism is. You do not represent creationist beliefs - no-one does, you all have personal beliefs, wheel them out as if universal and then complain that that is not what creationists believe.

It really would help if you guys could sort your act out.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by mike the wiz, posted 07-03-2017 8:06 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 84 of 252 (814451)
07-10-2017 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
07-10-2017 4:10 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Faith writes:

It's just as scientific as any source of knowledge, or truth about the physical world, and far more reliable than any conclusions the fallen human mind can come up with.

Have you spent all these years here and not even learned this? I find it really hard to understand how that's possible.

Personal beliefs are not scientific knowledge - by the very definition of science they can't be.

quote:
Science The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

Science's conclusions can be confirmed independently and repeatedly by others regardless of their personal belief. Additionally, they can change depending on the evidence supporting them.

Your approach to knowledge gathering is the exact opposite of science.

What's even more amazing to me is why you would even want it to be.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 4:10 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 104 of 252 (814546)
07-10-2017 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
07-10-2017 5:32 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Faith writes:

That isn't what I said. I'm talking about KNOWING something is the absolute truth. Sorry you've never had the experience.

I worked in a mental hospital and met hundreds of people who knew things to be absolutely true. I met several Jesus's, a Napoleon and a Churchill - amongst others.

The mind is an amazing thing, given the right circumstances anybody can believe anything and if you look over history you can see that anybody can and does.

That's why the scientific method was developed, to provide a reliable and objective method of finding how things actually are rather than how any individual perceives it to be.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 5:32 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 6:21 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 117 of 252 (814585)
07-11-2017 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
07-10-2017 6:21 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Faith writes:

Only a leftist wouldn't know the difference between the delusions of mental patients and the truth of God's word.

The point I was making Faith is not that believers are mentally ill - tho' some quite obviously are - but that the human mind is capable of believing almost anything from lucky numbers to changing wine into the blood of a long dead person.

The scientific method was designed to overcome that flaw in people.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 6:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 3:03 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 129 of 252 (814599)
07-11-2017 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Faith
07-11-2017 3:03 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Faith writes:

God gives the knowledge in this case, there is no need for the methods of fallen intellect.

Actually, the truth is exactly the opposite - we've proven that religious beliefs can not reliably inform us of anything to do with the natural world and, when it tries, it's always wrong - from planetary movements, to medical conditions, to the age of the earth.

Just flat out, in your face wrong.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 3:03 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 250 of 252 (819487)
09-11-2017 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by CRR
09-11-2017 5:47 PM


Re: Genetic Differences
CRR writes:

I've already said I'm not interested in answering the original topic because it is set up as a no win proposition.

Yes, we've noticed you don't answer or even respond to questions asked of you. If you can't win any of these arguments what does that tell you?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by CRR, posted 09-11-2017 5:47 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
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