|
QuickSearch
Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ] |
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9028 total) |
| |
Michael MD | |
Total: 884,174 Year: 1,820/14,102 Month: 188/624 Week: 72/95 Day: 1/15 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Micro v. Macro Creationist Challenge | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 19996 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Fruitful discussion requires agreement on definitions. As a starting point, here's the definition of macroevolution from Wikipedia: quote: In your view, what's wrong with that definition? --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 8482 Joined: Member Rating: 6.1 |
The explanation is gene loss in the chimp lineage, but not in the human lineage.
As you referenced in previous posts, there are human and hominoid specific genes that were not expressed in the common ancestor of all apes.
So you think the differences between humans and other apes is due solely to gene loss? None of those differences are due to the emergence of new genes or alterations to existing genes?
Do you consider the evolution of humans from a common ancestor shared with chimps to be macroevolution?
Ensembl is the one saying that there are orthologues of PLCXD1 in other primate genomes.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CRR Member (Idle past 1073 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
There's a whole topic in that. The issue remains unresolved. I favour Durston's definitions myself.
[edit] Or from Message 107 Edited by CRR, : [edit] Or from Message 107
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CRR Member (Idle past 1073 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
So for human genes that have no homologue in the chimp genome the explanation is gene loss in the chimp lineage, but not in the human lineage.
The Chimp genome has many genes that have, according to Ensemble, no homologue in the Human genome.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 19996 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
How can fruitful discussion about micro and macroevolution take place while disagreement about their definitions remains? --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 8482 Joined: Member Rating: 6.1 |
As already shown, there are homologues on the X chromosome for the genes lost on the Y chromosome. The differences between the chimp and human Y chromosomes are due to loss in the chimp genome. For other genes, the mechanism for new genes is gene duplication in either lineage and/or evolution of new transcription factors upstream of regions that were not previously transcribed. It is all in the papers in you have been referencing.
According to Ensembl there are parts of the human Y chromosome that are not present in the chimp Y chromosome, but are present in other ape Y chromosomes. Of the genes that are missing, there are homologues on the X chromosome. If Ensembl is what you trust, here is PLCXD1 mapped to the X chromosome at Ensembl: http://www.ensembl.org/Homo_sapiens/Location/View?db=core... Further down the X chromosome you can see SHOX, yet another of the genes on your list that has homologous sequence on the Y chromosome. See a pattern forming here? We can even see if there are homologues in the gorilla genome, and there are: http://www.ensembl.org/Homo_sapiens/Location/Synteny?db=c... Orangutan homologue? Yep, sure is: http://www.ensembl.org/Homo_sapiens/Location/Synteny?g=EN... This is not a human specific gene. The reason for the lack of a chimp homologue in the Y chromosome is gene loss as shown by the ape phylogeny. Edited by Taq, : No reason given. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 8482 Joined: Member Rating: 6.1 |
All apes, including humans, are in separate genera. Would you agree that humans evolving from a common ancestor shared with chimps would be an example of macroevolution?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CRR Member (Idle past 1073 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Right now I'm focusing on non-homologous genes between humans and chimps. The Ensemble pages I linked previously show that humans have many genes that have no homologue anywhere in the chimp genome. You have already stated that the best explanation is gene loss in the chimp lineage, but not in the human lineage.
The Ensemble site also shows that chimps have many genes that have no homologue anywhere in the human genome. What do you think is the best explanation for this? Is it gene loss in the HUMAN lineage, but not in the CHIMP lineage? We can look at orthologues later.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Why wouldn't we expect something like a roughly equal amount of diversion between the species, assuming that they have a common ancestor? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CRR Member (Idle past 1073 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
I believe there are roughly equal numbers of non-homologous genes on each side. The Ensemble pages I linked previously show that humans have many genes that have no homologue anywhere in the chimp genome. Taq has stated that the best explanation is gene loss in the chimp lineage, but not in the human lineage, since separation from the common ancestor. Do you agree with Taq? The Ensemble site shows that chimps have many genes that have no homologue anywhere in the human genome.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 8482 Joined: Member Rating: 6.1 |
I am focusing on the topic of the thread. That topic is a challenge given to ID/creationists to point to differences between the chimp and human genomes that could not be produced by known and observed mechanisms of mutagenesis. Gene loss is already a known and observed mechanism, so we can scratch that one off the list.
No RNA homologue or no DNA homologue? You need to be specific, and list the genes you are talking about. If it is limited to just the end of the chimp Y-chromosome, then the explanation has already been given which is gene loss in the chimp genome as evidenced by the presence of those genes in other ape genomes.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 8482 Joined: Member Rating: 6.1 |
I already showed you a reference dealing with those genes: "The chimpanzee MSY contains twice as many massive palindromes as the human MSY, yet it has lost large fractions of the MSY protein-coding genes and gene families present in the last common ancestor." Are you saying that you disagree with this Nature paper?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CRR Member (Idle past 1073 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
So then the human and chimp genomes both contain genes that have no homologue in the other.
The best evolutionary explanation for this is that the common ancestor species had all of those genes and each lineage has lost a large number of genes since separation. Are you counting this gene loss as microevolution or macroevolution?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 235 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
No, the best evolutionary explanationis that since separation, some genes have been lost and some new genes have been gained. You have not shown that evolution only results in loss, so you cannot base your hypothesis on incomplete information. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CRR Member (Idle past 1073 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
That's interesting RAZD. Back at Message 182 regarding human genes that had no homologue in the chimp genome Taq said, "The explanation is gene loss in the chimp lineage, but not in the human lineage." What then regarding chimp genes that have no homologue in the human genome? Are there genes that have been gained since separation? A list would be good if you can find one.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021