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Author Topic:   Exploring (mostly Cultural) Marxism in today's Left
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 127 of 381 (813221)
06-24-2017 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
06-24-2017 12:04 PM


Re: Reading Marx and Satan
The only named biographer is Payne, who is also not Marx's "official biographer", and not even one of the best. Moreover the statement attributed to him is unlikely to have been meant as literally as Wurmbrand needs it to be.
If that's the calibre of evidence on offer, I can say that Wurmbrand's effort is just another of those nasty smears you love so much.

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 Message 125 by Faith, posted 06-24-2017 12:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 143 of 381 (813246)
06-25-2017 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Faith
06-24-2017 8:29 PM


Re: the Tenets of Satanism
Joanna Southcott was not a Satanist. And if Wurmbrand makes obviously false claims about that, how can we trust him on anything else ?
And I'm still waiting for you to support your claim that Wurmbrand was quoting an "official biographer" when the material you quote from Wurmbrand seems to be clearly talking about Payne.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 06-24-2017 8:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 4:56 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 146 of 381 (813251)
06-25-2017 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Faith
06-25-2017 4:56 AM


Re: the Tenets of Satanism
quote:
I misspoke about the biographer, merely intending to say Payne was an actual biographer to contrast him with Wurmbrand who is merely doing a study of the Satanic themes in Marx's life
I don't think that an interpretation of one biographer's interpretation is much of an argument. Do you ?
quote:
Joanna Southcott's "prophecies" make her an occultist at least, which connects her with the powers of darkness
Or more likely a deluded Christian. At least to those informed of the basics of her life.
quote:
I'll see if I can find more reason in the book to connect her with Satanism itself as Wurmbrand did.
I doubt it.

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 Message 145 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 4:56 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 149 of 381 (813254)
06-25-2017 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Faith
06-25-2017 5:31 AM


Re: Son in Law into Satanism
If Marx's son in law was a Satanist that would only be weak circumstantial evidence that Marx himself was a Satanist - very weak when the relationship only began after Marx's death.
However, Edward Aveling was an atheist according to the main evidence available and Wurmbrand only offers weak circumstantial evidence to the contrary.
You know, if you want to convince us that Wurmbrand has a case you really shouldn't be telling about this desperate scrambling for anything that might count as evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 5:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 6:17 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 152 of 381 (813257)
06-25-2017 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Faith
06-25-2017 6:17 AM


Re: Son in Law into Satanism
quote:
I note that you give no evidence yourself, just make assertions
Which can easily be confirmed.
quote:
Wurmbrand says Eleanor's marriage had Marx's approval,
Aveling
In 1884, Aveling became the partner of Eleanor "Tussy" Marx, the daughter of Karl Marx
Eleanor Marx
In 1884, Eleanor joined the Social Democratic Federation (SDF) led by Henry Hyndman and was elected to its executive. During her work in the SDF, she met Edward Aveling, with whom she would spend the rest of her life.
Karl Marx died in March 1883
How could Marx approve of a "marriage" to a man that Eleanor had not even met before he died ?
quote:
and the poem attributed to her husband is certainly Satan worship
It is certainly a poem, and thus very likely not to be taken literally.
quote:
Even if you were right that the marriage came after Marx's death it must say something about Marx that his favorite daughter would marry a Satan worshiper.
It is easy enough to check. And since you have yet to provide any real evidence that Aveling was a Satan worshipper it says more about you and Wurmbrand than it does about Marx.
quote:
And there's a lot more evidence of such Satanic themes among Marx's friends, so the evidence is hardly confined to Eleanor's husband.
If you have good evidence you don't waste your time with trash like this.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 6:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 6:55 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 154 of 381 (813262)
06-25-2017 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
06-25-2017 6:55 AM


Re: Son in Law into Satanism
What a biographer does or does not include depends on the aims of the biographer. A biographer does not have to be sympathetic to his subject.
More importantly, making excuses for the absence of evidence - while a staple of conspiracy theorists - does not change the fact that the evidence is absent.
If you are reduced to relying on weak circumstantial evidence to generate weak circumstantial evidence then you do not have a case. It speaks ill of Wurmbrand that he is reduced to such tactics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 6:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 7:43 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 157 of 381 (813265)
06-25-2017 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Faith
06-25-2017 7:43 AM


Re: Son in Law into Satanism
quote:
I think the evidence is quite good and I think anyone not a convinced follower of Marx would take it seriously.
I'm not any sort of follower of Marx and there is nothing worth taking seriously as evidence that Marx actually worshipped Satan.
On the other hand there is plenty of evidence that Wurmbrand's book is a waste of time. Thanks for providing that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 7:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 8:02 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 160 of 381 (813268)
06-25-2017 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Faith
06-25-2017 8:02 AM


Re: Son in Law into Satanism
I probably wouldn't have. I might have had it been better and relevant. But it wasn't relevant before and now I know that it is worthless even if it's subject should be of relevance to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 8:02 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 8:12 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 163 of 381 (813271)
06-25-2017 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Faith
06-25-2017 8:12 AM


Re: Son in Law into Satanism
I'm sorry that it is good enough for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 8:12 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 182 of 381 (813304)
06-25-2017 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Faith
06-25-2017 9:38 PM


Re: Pastor Wurmbrand
quote:
This kind of rude abusive attitude makes me often regret ever posting anything here. Pastor Wurmbrand was no "nutjob."
He tries to use hair style as "evidence" of Satanism. And even gets that wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 06-25-2017 9:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 298 of 381 (813791)
06-30-2017 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Faith
06-30-2017 12:00 PM


Re: Political Correctness is engineered class hatred
quote:
HERE's how it works: Remember Rwanda? The Hutus slaughtered the Tutsis after a history of no conflict. Because somebody got on the radio and told them that the Tutsis were "cockroaches" and didn't deserve to live...
And now you remind me of the exchange starting here Message 753
Funny how it took you less than two weeks to go from denying that you say such things to saying them again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 06-30-2017 12:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Faith, posted 06-30-2017 4:33 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 300 of 381 (813800)
06-30-2017 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Faith
06-30-2017 4:33 PM


Re: Political Correctness is engineered class hatred
quote:
Say what things? This topic is how PC accuses people of things that can get them killed under the right circumstances,
Conditions which don't exist and aren't likely to exist in America.
quote:
...that it's all about finding an enemy to blame for some kind of suffering of somebody else,
That's rather your thing. In fact this whole line is an example of it.
And really, if you are talking about actual Marxism don't you think that employers had a lot to do with the awful working conditions many people suffered in Marx's time ?
Which is rather more than can be said for the targets of your hate.
quote:
You say I denied this somewhere? I'm not going to check and if you don't want to clarify I don't care.
You denied that it was a problem when a Rightist did it. And let us be honest "subhuman vermin" is rather closer to the Nazi attitude than the actual statements you object to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Faith, posted 06-30-2017 4:33 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 311 of 381 (813857)
07-01-2017 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by Faith
07-01-2017 9:08 AM


Re: capitalism
quote:
Capitalism doesn't have to be that insensitive, and with the right employers it's not. With the wrong employers you still have the legal system for the sake of the workers
Then you should give thanks to the Left for those legal protections. Which are part of the way that the system avoids the dangers of unrestricted capitalism
(ABE but read THIS )
And it's not just employees who have to fear.
Shkreli’s plans to fleece patients is what hooked big investorstestimony Whether you consider massive price increases with no justification other than that the patients - or their insurers - have no good alternative to paying up - "fleecing" or not, it's still nasty. But that's capitalism for you.
Edited by PaulK, : Added material (marked ABE)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 9:08 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 335 of 381 (814376)
07-08-2017 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 333 by NoNukes
07-08-2017 1:07 AM


The Newer Colossus
Don't give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.
They're the wrong sort of people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by NoNukes, posted 07-08-2017 1:07 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 380 of 381 (817618)
08-18-2017 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by Faith
08-18-2017 4:20 PM


Re: The Cvonnection Between Marxism and Fascism
Given that the Socialists kicked out Mussolini and the Communists wouldn't have Hitler the "connection" doesn't seem to be exactly strong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 4:20 PM Faith has not replied

  
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