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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Exploring (mostly Cultural) Marxism in today's Left | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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Faith writes: I'm not sure how to approach this subject so I'm just throwing it out to see what kind of response it gets. As I said I can't really read the main documents but maybe I can learn more about them in whatever discussion comes about, but I know I do know enough already that my hatred can only get deeper with greater knowledge. I know it's going to be a bumpy ride, but I'm hoping participants will try to be civil and thoughtful and contribute meaningful thoughts. I think you're getting hung up on political descriptions and sticking names on things to blame. You seem to be against people entering the US and killing innocent people. That's fantastic. So denounce people entering the US and killing innocent people.You would get a lot more agreement from others. The problem begins when you think such a thing can be classified as "Islam." Now you want to denounce people entering the US and killing innocent people... but instead of denouncing that... you say "Islam is terrible! Let's stop Islam!" And that's the problem. To you, Islam means people entering the US and killing innocent people.However, to the vast majority of 'everyone else,' the term "Islam" includes a whole lot of other things that have nothing to do with people entering the US and killing innocent people. All you have is a simple terminology, definition issue. The correct course of action isn't to try and get people across the world to start using the definition of the term "Islam" that only makes sense to you and your local friends who all use it in the same way. The correct course of action is to stop adding confusion to the issue with the term "Islam" and focus on denouncing "people entering the US and killing innocent people." That will get you a lot more agreement, and you can start to focus on solutions instead of sitting around in a pile of frustrating confusion because you're stuck in a political game of definitions. Stop using terms like Islam, Leftist, Marxism and Oppressor. No one else uses the same definitions for them as you do, and all it does is add extra baggage of confusion and dilutes the points you're trying to make. Cut to the chase. If you don't want people coming to the US and killing innocent people... then stick with that. All your perceived "political problems" will disappear.
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Taq Member Posts: 10038 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Faith writes: Marxism is the ideology that sent Solzhenitsyn to the gulag archipelago, and justified all the murders of Stalin and Mao. How so? Where did Marx call for pogroms of this kind? How did his ideologies support these pogroms?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
So, let's see, I'm not allowed to see things differently than you do, I have to see them your way; you absolutely refuse to learn anything from me but I absolutely have to learn it all from you. Got it. Have a good day.
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Taq Member Posts: 10038 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: So, let's see, I'm not allowed to see things differently than you do, I have to see them your way; you absolutely refuse to learn anything from me but I absolutely have to learn it all from you. Got it. Have a good day. Isn't that exactly how you are treating us? We have to see things your way or else?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I do know a few things it would be worth taking seriously. But I can see this thread is a lost cause.
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
No it isnt. You brought up a good topic about how todays leftist ideologies are quite possibly influenced by the dark side. Your critics would say that you dont see any problem with the conservative side.
I read some good artcles lately.
Negativity bias: why conservatives are more swayed by threats than liberals Are Today's Charismatic Manifestations of The Gifts Real? (Chris Rosebrough is a Lutheran Pastor who exposes much of false religion within contemporary Christianity. )Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Taq Member Posts: 10038 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: I do know a few things it would be worth taking seriously. But I can see this thread is a lost cause. It is rare when you can see yourself losing within 30 posts.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1046 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined:
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I'm not sure how to approach this subject so I'm just throwing it out to see what kind of response it gets. As I said I can't really read the main documents but maybe I can learn more about them in whatever discussion comes about, but I know I do know enough already that my hatred can only get deeper with greater knowledge. I empathise entirely with your inability to read Das Kapital. I didn't get far in it either, and I sometimes suspect that nobody has ever actually read it all the way through. Maybe one enthusiastic student of Marxism-Leninism in 1970s Moscow struggled to end, but I'm dubious about that. The Communist Manifesto, however, is actually quite short and not very difficult, and you can find it easy online - I actually found an audiobook version on Youtube (didn't listen far, but I'm not filled with confidence in the narrator given that he mispronounced Engels' first name). If you're just confused by the references to 19th century politics I'd be happy to explain some of the bits that you don't get. It only has four chapters - really only three, since the fourth is simply a brief call to arms. We can take them one by one. The first chapter is an explanation of Marx and Engels' views on the history of society*. It basically outlines that they see history as different economic classes struggling for their own interests (not always consciously). The society of their day they see as dominated by the bourgeois class (capitalists, basically); which developed out of the townspeople of the Middle Ages and had, over the course of centuries, destroyed feudal society and absolute monarchy; remaking society in its own bourgeois image. Modern representative democracy (by which they meant 19th century republics and constitutional monarchies, which were in many ways not what we would consider modern, representative democracies) was society organised to defend and promote the interests of the bourgeoisie. Bourgeois society, by its internationalisation; its technological modernisation and its search for new markets was eliminating all of the old social classes ("the small manufacturer, the shopkeeper, the artisan, the peasant"), but in doing so was preparing it's own destruction (in M&E's view). All of society except a small elite was being turned into one the same thing - the common industrial worker. But this meant that the ruling class were no longer facing a whole bunch of different classes with different interests - they had instead created one unified class consisting of the overwhelming majority of the world's population, who all had the same interests. As this class began to realise it's shared interest and united it would do away with the bourgeoisie. And, unlike previous social changes, the newly dominant class would not be a small minority group establishing society in it's own image. It would be the whole mass of society who now shared one class consciousness, and communist utopia would ensue. Now, there's much in here that is important for later Marxist thought. Here we have the basics on which dialectical materialism is based; and the brief discussion of capitalism's internal contradictions and inevitable crises is pretty much the main 'Marxist' part of contemporary economist who describe themselves as Marxist. I'm not sure if any of this if what you're seeking though. Let me know if you're interested in Chapter 2. *At least, Marx and Engels wrote it. It's presented as the conclusions of an international conference of Communist parties. Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Thanks for your explanation. I may get more into some of the references on the thread, including yours.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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I like Chris Rosebrough, I've seen some of his writings. I followed the "Strange Fire Conference" of a few years ago put on by John MacArthur's Grace Community Church in Southern California, where they did the best job I've ever seen of showing the falseness of the Charismatic Movement.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Your comments on race are so far off.
It is true that Marxism and communism were a driving force behind civil and equal rights, but today's black community is quite anti-communist and very nationalist. (I blame the CIA for all this hatred against Jew's and the race riots ) The neighborhoods were racially mixed from 1965 to 1968 until the 1968 riots. Then by 1969 the segregation was back, and blacks were still throwing a major fit as late as the 1990s when Jews moved into "black neighborhoods" in Harlem and elsewhere. The American communist party was founded in 1919, and civil rights were a worldwide priority (Germany, France, United States, and the rights of Vietnam folks were called for as well as the entire world ). Jewish individuals founded the NAACP and other civil rights organizations. By 1965 we Americans looked well on the way toward anti-nationalism with the law being changed to allow both the massive overall increase in immigration and diverse people's to immigrate. The neighborhood situation was very mixed, but the nationalistic Black Power movement made its cancerous debut. Jews were kicked out of the black civil rights groups and the idea of civil rights is constantly described as a "Jewish plot" (I hear blacks say it all the time ) to do all sorts of nefarious things. The 1968 race riots caused "white flight " and it was only because whites didn't want to fight a race war with blacks. Blacks are brainwashed to this day over the cause of "white flight" . Much of what Faith describes is anti-communist black nationalism. Which is alive and well though the riots finally stopped completely. And many black nationalism slogans are presented as direct responses to things Jews have said ( the Black Is Beautiful slogan is a constant reminder to a racist comment a prominent Jewish scholar made in Spain almost 1000 years ago and which blacks accuse all Jews of believing ) Everybody has moved more nationalist in outlook, and much of what Faith describes is right wing anti-communistic thought. Communism is dead anyway so this is a crappy non starter thread just the way it is presented as a present issue to start with. The only lasting victory of communism is the triumph of democracy (though popular propaganda distorts this issue too )
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Genomicus Member (Idle past 1963 days) Posts: 852 Joined:
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Yeah, but your whole post is amazingly ignorant, too. Not even one citation. One could reasonably come to the conclusion that you know nothing about black and African-American history in the United States.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
I know a heck of alot more than you do.
Alot of Jews went "neoconservative" after the nationalist movement in the black community reared its hateful head . In the mid-late 60s. Marxism fell apart (as far as teachings in universities ) and essentially vanished after the 70s. Faith is just looking at the broad "left" and calling it Marxist. The NAACP is trying to incorporate pro-immigration and pro-gay rights into its mission, but is getting lots of pushback. Communism and Islam never were anything but enemies but Faith throws in one cannard after another on that one too. (I never read his book, but the neoconservative David Horowitz wrote Radical Son and it was about his leaving Marxism. He has been known to take on the anti-gay crap from the right, while exposing alot of racism from the black community. I can't vouch for all he says, but he was a good debater in the 1990s when he had that organization - the name escapes me but it was something about "culture" in the name ) Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5948 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
The USSR was never Marxist. Nor was it ever Communist. For that matter, in modern times there has never been any actual Communist government (I'm having to exclude random communes tucked away somewhere). You see, Communism is a perfect system and in order to get that perfect system you need perfect people to populate it. People are not perfect, so they must be made to be perfect. In order to do that, you need the dictatorship of the proletariat (ie, the working class). All nations that tried to become Communist got stuck in that stage, in the dictatorship of the proletariat. And they could proceed no further than that.
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Genomicus Member (Idle past 1963 days) Posts: 852 Joined: |
You call the Black Power movement cancerous. So, yeah, obviously you're pretty ignorant of black history and the black struggle for civil rights by any means necessary.
Blargh. Will respond to your post(s) in more depth later. Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.
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