Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 72 (9010 total)
42 online now:
Diomedes, kjsimons, ringo (3 members, 39 visitors)
Newest Member: Burrawang
Post Volume: Total: 881,669 Year: 13,417/23,288 Month: 347/795 Week: 48/95 Day: 2/11 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evidence of the flood
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16580
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 15 of 899 (818521)
08-30-2017 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
08-29-2017 11:13 PM


quote:

Also not a good idea to disagree with God about what He said.

Then I guess you should stop doing it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 08-29-2017 11:13 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16580
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 39 of 899 (818604)
08-31-2017 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by riVeRraT
08-30-2017 11:00 PM


Science doesn't work quite the way you think. There are degrees of certainty. The conclusion that there was never a world-wide flood while humans have existed is very high on that scale. It's not absolute but it isn't far off.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by riVeRraT, posted 08-30-2017 11:00 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2017 6:21 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16580
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 42 of 899 (818610)
08-31-2017 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by riVeRraT
08-30-2017 10:53 PM


Even if you extend this behaviour to all wild animals it isn't evidence of the Flood.

First, it provides no reason at all to believe that a world-wide Flood actually happened.

Second, even if you insert it into the Flood story all you would get is local animals trying to get into the Ark when things are already bad, which hardly fits the story.

It's silly to call it evidence of the Flood. That's why I thought that the OP was just a joke.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by riVeRraT, posted 08-30-2017 10:53 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 08-31-2017 9:07 AM PaulK has responded
 Message 46 by jar, posted 08-31-2017 9:31 AM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 63 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2017 6:28 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16580
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 44 of 899 (818613)
08-31-2017 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
08-31-2017 9:07 AM


quote:

O fer pete's sake. A hawk is scared of the coming hurricane and hides in a taxi and won't leave. Does it remind us of the Flood perhaps? Well sure it does, refuge from the storm for some animals as well as humans. You can stretch an analogy too far you know.

You realise that you are agreeing with me ? That calling this "evidence of the Flood" is best taken as a joke ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 08-31-2017 9:07 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 08-31-2017 9:22 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16580
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 47 of 899 (818617)
08-31-2017 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
08-31-2017 9:22 AM


To call it evidence of the Flood is still a joke. Nothing in your post even addresses that point.

And, while it may please you to think that animals are dependent on us, it isn't generally true of wild animals (and where it is true it's usually because we've made things difficult for them)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 08-31-2017 9:22 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16580
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 54 of 899 (818641)
08-31-2017 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by NoNukes
08-31-2017 12:03 PM


quote:

But has anyone considered that this bird may not be completely wild? Folks train these particular birds as pets, and I am sure that some of them escape and don't feel the desire to come back home.

I did. Apparently Cooper's Hawks are used in falconry, but aren't popular because they are hard to train. But that means they are more likely to fly off and not come back - always a risk with birds of prey. And some people do keep birds of prey as pets, even though it isn't really a good idea.

There's no way to tell for sure, but even if it is a wild bird there must be a lot more Cooper's Hawks around that didn't jump into taxis - not to mention all the rest of the urban wildlife. To jump to the conclusion that animals are "programmed" to seek shelter with humans based on a single example when so many have not is daft. To go on and try to use it to explain how animals got on to the mythical Ark, when it doesn't even fit the story is even dafter. And to then claim it as evidence for the Flood ? It's practically begging to be laughed at.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by NoNukes, posted 08-31-2017 12:03 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by NoNukes, posted 08-31-2017 5:19 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16580
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 70 of 899 (818689)
09-01-2017 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by riVeRraT
08-31-2017 6:21 PM


quote:

Yes, that is exactly what I said in other words.

Then you agree that jar was basically right. Nit-picking about the difference between a virtual certainty and an absolute certainty seems a bit of a waste of time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2017 6:21 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by riVeRraT, posted 09-02-2017 6:57 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16580
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 71 of 899 (818690)
09-01-2017 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by riVeRraT
08-31-2017 6:28 PM


quote:

It is direct evidence of a flood.

I think you need to work more on the delivery. As a joke that fell completely flat.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2017 6:28 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by riVeRraT, posted 09-02-2017 6:54 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16580
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 72 of 899 (818691)
09-01-2017 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
08-31-2017 7:19 PM


Re: EvC triumphs again
quote:

To call the incident of the bird in the taxi evidence for the Flood is a bit of hyperbole I just overlooked.

I think that "idiocy" would be more accurate than "hyperbole"

quote:

But the incident itself certainly does remind one of the Flood -- a bird scared by the huge amount of water on its way finds a dry place to hang out with a human being -- and all the mental gyrations in the effort to deny it are typical EvC nuttiness cuz Creationists can't ever say ANYTHING at all without being contradicted, no matter how casual the comment.

Of course nobody is objecting to you being reminded of the Flood story. It's the attempt to argue for it as evidence of the Flood that is being objected to.

Apparently we can't point out that a ridiculous falsehood is ridiculously false without you objecting.

As for the question of whether riverrat is a creationist why would that matter ? I argued even more against Crashfrogs silly arguments that Jesus never existed. Should I have given those a pass because Crashfrog isn't a Creationist ?

quote:

All the incidents of wild animals seeking human help that I mentioned that you can find at You Tube certainly suggests that something kicks in under such circumstances that leads them to trust us. They are expecting help rather than hurt.

Or they are just desperate to get out of the rain. Possibly scared, too.

quote:

But as usual since it is claimed over and over and over that there is no evidence for the biblical worldwide Flood I just have to point out all the in-your-face evidence y'all ignore with as much wacko exertion as it takes to make a mountain out of the molehill of the cute scared birdy in the taxi.

Strata

Fossils

Hooray for EvC. Must deserve some kind of award for this odd behavior;.


You find it odd that people disagree with obvious falsehoods ? I think the bizarre behaviour is yours. Emphasising the the Flood is a falsehood - which you keep on doing - isn't going to convince any sane person.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 08-31-2017 7:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16580
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 81 of 899 (818816)
09-03-2017 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by riVeRraT
09-02-2017 6:54 PM


quote:

It's not a joke.

Well I am sorry if I was being too charitable,

quote:

Are you denying what you seen with your own eyes in the video? It's pretty obvious to me the flood caused that scenario. Do you have an alternate explanation?

For clarity, "a flood" and "the flood" are 2 different things.


If "the flood" means Noah's Flood as it almost always does in this context then your claim is just silly.

If you mean "the flood in Houston" then "a flood" would still be correct (making your distinction deceptive at best) and your post looks even more like an intentional joke.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by riVeRraT, posted 09-02-2017 6:54 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16580
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 82 of 899 (818818)
09-03-2017 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by riVeRraT
09-02-2017 6:57 PM


quote:

No, jar said it as an absolute. Funny how the Christians get "nit picked" but jar and atheists don't.

In other words, jar was simply speaking s little loosely - as anyone who calls the Earth a sphere would be doing (and calling the Earth a sphere is known to be not exactly correct). Hardly a matter worth mentioning.

As for the other part all I will say is that it is funny how "Christians" feel free to crtiticse others - without much concern for honesty or truth - yet whine is horribly when far better founded criticisms are made of them. It's not exactly Christian behaviour.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by riVeRraT, posted 09-02-2017 6:57 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2017 11:38 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16580
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 93 of 899 (818842)
09-03-2017 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by riVeRraT
09-03-2017 11:38 AM


quote:

Then there is that. Only people that believe there was no flood are allowed to speak losely. Those that have been branded to believe in a flood cannot. I hope you can see your bigotry.

I hope that you can see that you are a whining liar who is upset because he gets the criticisms he earned.

Everyone is allowed to speak as loosely as jar did, at least in ordinary speech. You will rarely find anyone criticised for doing so, no matter what hey believe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2017 11:38 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2017 11:10 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16580
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 94 of 899 (818843)
09-03-2017 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by riVeRraT
09-03-2017 11:51 AM


Re: On topic
quote:

So Pollux, Faith, and RAZD are the only ones to reply directly to my point in the OP

Untrue, I also did. Message 42

quote:

What I did by posting this was to show that there is evidence that part of the story on THE GLOBAL FLOOD, is true. If a flood had started, animals have been observed to seek shelter with humans. This is evidence that part of the story could be true. So essentially we have evidence.

As I pointed out it is NOT part of the story. It does not even seem to be true in general - the vast majority of urban wildlife did not seek shelter. And even if it was part of the story it would be as true if there were only a severe local flood. Not to mention that fictions can and do include known facts, so even if it was a fact (it isn't) and even if it was in the story (it isn't) it still wouldn't be the evidence you claim.

So, essentially you have no evidence here of a global Flood.

quote:

The rest of you went on and on how we have no evidence and went off you your usual bigoted attacks on people of faith. Just admit it, this is evidence in support of the story. Doesn't mean it happened. So unless you can show how animals evolved into this behavior, (asked once already) you can no longer say there is zero evidence.

Since I have given four good reasons why it is not evidence of a global flood this hardly applies.

We do not even have to assume that this is an evolved instinct since the evidence is against it. Why the relatively few animals who did seek shelter with humans did so is a question that needs to be addressed individually because the numbers are small. Some may have been partly tame - escaped from domestic life, or habituated to humans (usually from being fed). Some may simply seek shelter and find tolerating humans better than the alternative. It's not hard to explain at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2017 11:51 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2017 11:15 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16580
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 114 of 899 (818887)
09-04-2017 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by riVeRraT
09-03-2017 11:15 PM


Re: On topic
quote:

Nope sorry, you can't explain away actual evidence

Unfortunately for you I have shown that you don!t have actual evidence.

quote:

As in the flood not all the animals went to the ark.

You know, you might try reading the Flood story some time. Noah was given very soecific instructions on what to take. You think he relied on exactly the right animals turning up at the last minute ? For your argument to work you need every relevant species to turn up, in the right numbers - even those that didn't live locally, and before things got too bad.

And then there are the other three points - all of them fatal to your claim - which you haven't even addressed.

quote:

My point stands, there is evidence to that part of the story, be it true or false. You can't say the flood never happened because animals seek shelter with humans in disasters, that makes zero sense.

Well I am not saying that it is evidence against the Flood. However your assertion that it is evidence for the Flood makes no real sense either.

quote:

It is evidence of that part of the story, not a global flood.

That concedes your original point.

So now all you need is a part of the story where Noah takes on animals that just randomly happen to show up because of the rain. Please quote the verses which say that.

Edited by PaulK, : Corrected typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2017 11:15 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2017 11:09 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16580
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 137 of 899 (819001)
09-05-2017 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by riVeRraT
09-04-2017 11:09 PM


Re: On topic
quote:

Cool Beans.

Then perhaps we can avoid such ridiculous misrepresentations in the future.

quote:

Genisis7:20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive.

So, not exactly a crowd of those local species prepared to tolerate human company arriving only when the rain got really bad. Even if we ignore the parallel account (which has distinct differences) you have to have pairs (and only pairs) of all species and the whole thing has to happen in a day. Obviously if there were simply an instinct to find shelter with humans you would just get the species living in the immediate area, and pretty much every single one of them - not just a pair,

So, no, that doesn't fit the story (and to the extent it does, it makes a lot more sense for a local Flood - only species living close to the Ark are even possibly going to get in)

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2017 11:09 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020