Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 72 (9010 total)
48 online now:
frako, kjsimons, ringo, Tangle (4 members, 44 visitors)
Newest Member: Burrawang
Post Volume: Total: 881,669 Year: 13,417/23,288 Month: 347/795 Week: 48/95 Day: 2/11 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evidence of the flood
Coyote
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 53 of 899 (818632)
08-31-2017 12:17 PM


Evidence?
We have presented evidence in multiple threads that the flood never happened, and that evidence has been ignored or hand-waved away by true believers.

There is no point in going over it all again in a new thread.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 67 of 899 (818673)
08-31-2017 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by riVeRraT
08-31-2017 6:20 PM


Scientists??
There is absolutely no reason to think that the world is flat outside of religious belief.

Early "naturalists" relied on observations and had it figured out thousands of years Then religion came along and mandated their beliefs.

Come to think of it, some of them are still trying that nonsense.

We need another, more widespread, Enlightenment.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by riVeRraT, posted 08-31-2017 6:20 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 76 of 899 (818810)
09-02-2017 7:22 PM


No flood
There is simply no evidence for a global flood during historic times.

There is massive evidence that there was not a global flood about 4350 years ago.

Even my own archaeological research shows this--I don't need to rely on the research of others. My research shows continuity of a Native American mtDNA haplotype from 5300 years ago to the present. If there had been a global flood with an ark that haplotype would have been eliminated, to be replaced by haplotypes from the Middle East.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 09-02-2017 7:46 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 78 of 899 (818812)
09-02-2017 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
09-02-2017 7:46 PM


Re: No flood
Gosh how you trust your unprovable dates.

There's no point in you replying to my evidence, as you rely on scripture and belief instead of evidence.

We'll just agree to disagree.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 09-02-2017 7:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 91 of 899 (818840)
09-03-2017 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by riVeRraT
09-03-2017 11:51 AM


Re: Close enough to the topic
What I did by posting this was to show that there is evidence that part of the story on THE GLOBAL FLOOD, is true. If a flood had started, animals have been observed to seek shelter with humans. This is evidence that part of the story could be true. So essentially we have evidence.

You might also have claimed that the existence of water in Houston was evidence for a global flood during historic times, as your bird evidence is just about as weak.

The rest of you went on and on how we have no evidence and went off you your usual bigoted attacks on people of faith. Just admit it, this is evidence in support of the story. Doesn't mean it happened. So unless you can show how animals evolved into this behavior, (asked once already) you can no longer say there is zero evidence

OK, there was water in Houston, and one bird looked for high ground. Big deal. Neither is evidence for a global flood no matter how you spin it. Might as well claim the existence of green cheese on Earth is evidence that the moon is made of green cheese--that's about the same level of evidence.

Oh, and don't forget all the evidence that shows a global flood during historic times never happened.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2017 11:51 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2017 11:06 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 113 of 899 (818883)
09-03-2017 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by riVeRraT
09-03-2017 11:06 PM


Re: Close enough to the topic
riVeRraT writes:

Coyote writes:

You might also have claimed that the existence of water in Houston was evidence for a global flood during historic times, as your bird evidence is just about as weak.

Weak is more than zero.

Nonsense. The claimed global flood during historic times simply did not happen. The evidence against it is absolutely overwhelming, while the mere presence of water and a lost bird is pretty damn flimsy evidence of that such a global flood occurred during historic times.

If we went with your line of reasoning we'd be able to claim evidence for every kooky idea ever. That certainly would not be following the scientific method, nor the guidance of the Enlightenment which says we no longer have to kowtow to religious belief.

riVeRraT writes:

The water accumulation IS evidence of a global flood, but I am not going to go into that right now. It goes back to one of my posts years ago. Just 52" of rain in 5 days made the water 20' deep. Imagine what 40 days and nights would have done, globally.

Coyote writes:

OK, there was water in Houston, and one bird looked for high ground. Big deal. Neither is evidence for a global flood no matter how you spin it.

Because you say so.

Because the evidence says there was no such flood. If it were not for religious believers there would certainly be no claims for such a flood, as the evidence shows that no such flood occurred during historic times. Believers keep trying to make the real world conform to their fantasies, but things just don't work that way.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2017 11:06 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2017 11:11 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 192 of 899 (819208)
09-07-2017 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by jar
09-07-2017 9:07 PM


Re: Utter lies from jar
To begin at the beginning...

Another fundamental question: How is it that all of the many different dating methods agree very closely?

These are methods which rely on many different phenomena, but they agree very closely.

And they show that the Earth is old, and the YEC belief/claim is inaccurate.

Unless YECs can show how these dating methods are all wrong, their YEC belief is disproved.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by jar, posted 09-07-2017 9:07 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by RAZD, posted 09-07-2017 9:46 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 217 of 899 (819289)
09-08-2017 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Faith
09-08-2017 11:00 PM


The Flood is the most obvious natural explanation of what is actually seen.

"The Flood" is not a natural explanation--it is strictly religiously based. If nobody had ever heard of the bible, nobody would be pushing "The Flood" as an explanation for the natural phenomena.

As it is, the only folks pushing the idea of a global flood are religiously based. That should give you some indication...


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Faith, posted 09-08-2017 11:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 233 of 899 (819312)
09-09-2017 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Faith
09-09-2017 4:25 AM


Atheistic science?
...but instead we have a pretty atheistic science these days.

That's the only kind of science there is!

The religiously-inspired "science" and creation "science" are not real science as they ignore evidence in favor of supporting a priori beliefs.

[We see examples that in many of the posts on this website, and indeed in this very thread.]


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 09-09-2017 4:25 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Faith, posted 09-09-2017 11:54 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 249 of 899 (819346)
09-09-2017 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Faith
09-09-2017 6:55 PM


Re: Atheistic science?
I was answering Coyote who said all science is atheistic...

It was pointed out that science is agnostic, rather than atheistic.

I agree that atheistic is not the best term. Perhaps "secular" would be a more appropriate term:

Secular: of or relating to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 09-09-2017 6:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 09-09-2017 7:21 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 251 of 899 (819349)
09-09-2017 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Faith
09-09-2017 7:21 PM


Re: Atheistic science?
But any of those terms imply that God is left out of the scientific reckoning so my question still is What if there is a God who made it all and science is ignoring Him?

And what tools does science wield that would detect gods?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 09-09-2017 7:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 09-09-2017 7:31 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 256 of 899 (819356)
09-09-2017 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
09-09-2017 7:31 PM


Re: Atheistic science?
But the question still stands, what if He exists and He made the whole physical universe and science is ignoring Him? You're going to get a lot of things wrong.

But what if no gods exist, and someone bases their whole belief and interpretive systems on the existence of a particular god or gods? They're going to get a lot of things wrong.

But how do you tell which is right? One side relies on scriptures and beliefs (which are notoriously unreliable and on a world-wide basis are not in agreement with one another), and the other side relies on verifiable evidence and logic (which, while not always correct is at least self-correcting over time).

[If you believe that science should be subservient to religion, perhaps you should inquire to the Discovery Institute for part-time work. That's right up their alley.]


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 09-09-2017 7:31 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by riVeRraT, posted 09-14-2017 12:01 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 289 of 899 (819427)
09-10-2017 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Faith
09-10-2017 9:46 PM


Re: Capitulating to "Science"is the real mistake
The only foundation you can give Christian children is the truth and the truth contradicts Old Earth Science.

Science contradicts and disproves young earth beliefs with mountains of evidence.

If you want Christian children to be prepared for the real world, it is best not to try and teach them beliefs which are contradicted and disproved so easily by real-world evidence.

That just teaches them to distrust the other beliefs which they are taught.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Faith, posted 09-10-2017 9:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 491 of 899 (819705)
09-13-2017 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by Faith
09-13-2017 1:24 PM


Re: Again, the Geo Column shows the absurdity of the OE/ToE
Paradigm clash turns out to mean basically that nobody can ever argue from a different paradigm because the established paradigm is treated as sacrosanct and there is no tolerance for the other.

A theory, such as the ToE, is the single best explanation which accounts for all the relevant facts, which is contradicted by no relevant facts, and which makes successful predictions.

That is why the ToE is so widely supported and other explanations have a long way to go to supersede it.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 1:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(4)
Message 525 of 899 (819760)
09-14-2017 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 520 by Faith
09-14-2017 3:41 PM


Re: A charming fat fish proves radiometic dating is false cuz the varves aren't annual
Sediments are being deposited all the time.

That is why you have to dust your house periodically. If you let the dust build up for a century or two you will have a layer. If outdoors that layer will be superimposed on a previous layer. If they are a similar material they will merge, but if different they will probably form distinct strata. Volcanic ash layers are good examples of this.

In grad school we worked with Mt. Manama ash layers that were very distinctive. One was about 6700 years old, and it was almost always buried a meter or two deep.

Multiply by millions of years.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 520 by Faith, posted 09-14-2017 3:41 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by Faith, posted 09-14-2017 4:01 PM Coyote has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020