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Author Topic:   Evidence of the flood
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 99 of 894 (818859)
09-03-2017 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by RAZD
09-03-2017 2:15 PM


Re: On topic
Except we don't have mating pairs of animals ...

That's what I was thinking too. Now if there would have been several pairs of animals seeking out safety with humans a day or two in advance of the flood... that might raise some eyebrows. But one owl landing in/on a guys car during a flood is one of the wackiest things I have ever seen given as evidence for Noah's flood.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by RAZD, posted 09-03-2017 2:15 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 09-03-2017 6:59 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 103 of 894 (818868)
09-03-2017 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
09-03-2017 7:11 PM


Strata and fossils

Yea, yea, we know. Strata and fossils = global flood.

But the question here is...

Do you think this story of a hawk seeking help from a human is actually evidence of Noah's flood?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 09-03-2017 7:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 704 of 894 (820054)
09-16-2017 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 695 by Faith
09-16-2017 1:52 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
The erosion is minuscule, like rubble between layers caused by runoff or perhaps a shifting of the rocks causing abrasion. Erosion of the sort that we find on the surface would look like canyons and cliffs

You mean like the 800 foot tall monadnocks that jut up into the Tapeats? I never thought of 800' as miniscule, but I guess in Faith World who knows...

I did a project on "animals that farm" for a Population Ecology course I took and one of the groups I talked about was termites. Typically we think of termites as eating wood, but termites in Africa make these elaborate combs that they use to grow fungi and then they eat the fungus. In this paper, The first fossil fungus gardens of Isoptera: researchers identified fossilized fungal garden combs in paleosols associated with the Miocene.

A column showing the paleosols and in situ root systems.

Images of the fossilized combs recovered from the paleosols.

Here are the stratigraphic columns from another location where fossilized fungal combs were found.

Notice Aeolian cross bedding, erosional surfaces, roots, and fungal combs buried under 3 + meters of sediment.

There are quite a number of sites where these same types of termite associated fossils are found (at least hald a dozen of so).

So, what we need to know is ...

?? Are these sections part of the "Geological Column?"

?? Did the Flood deposit these as is?

?? Are these a result of termite activity post-flood?

Sure would be nice if there was anyone on the evo creo side here who could think straight and had the guts to say what needs to be said.

HBD

Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 695 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 1:52 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 708 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 10:51 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 705 of 894 (820055)
09-16-2017 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 700 by Percy
09-16-2017 8:19 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
ere's an image of the Muav Limstone that happens to show a channel (riverbed) eroded into it's surface by the Temple Butte Formation:

The channels on the Muav are maybe 30 - 50' deep; I think Faith considers that "miniscule." I think she expects that if the surface is eroded it should look like the Grand Canyon, which is the typification of surface erosion. Otherwise it FLAT, FLAT, FLAT.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 700 by Percy, posted 09-16-2017 8:19 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 706 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 10:39 AM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 709 of 894 (820069)
09-16-2017 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 706 by Faith
09-16-2017 10:39 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
The Muav channels were clearly formed after the strata were all in place by liquefied limestone running between the layers.

How can you possibly say that is "clear"? It is far from being clear that "liquefied limestone" even exists and that the channels in the Muav were cut by this fictitious material.

You could possibly say that "maybe liquefied limestone ran between the layers and carved the channels." But to say it is "clearly" the case and that we must all be blind to not see it is beyond ridiculous.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 706 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 10:39 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 710 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:00 AM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 711 of 894 (820071)
09-16-2017 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 710 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:00 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
It doesn't look like a surface river bed, it has no features of a riverbed whatever, it's smooth and bald, it looks like a channel cut between the layers, and since it's filled with limestone which often dissolves, forming karsts and so on, which are also in evidence in the GC, it is the best explanation.

ABE: They sure don't look like karsts.

But Yea, sure, whatever ....

What about the paleosols? What cockamamie idea do have about how paleosols with intact termite nests and roots are preserved?

HBD

Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 710 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 712 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:07 AM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 714 of 894 (820074)
09-16-2017 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 712 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:07 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
As for paleosols and termite nests you'd have to show me a picture.

Uhmm... Message 704


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 712 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:07 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 725 of 894 (820086)
09-16-2017 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 713 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:10 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
The smooth half-moon shape of the channel.

It seems patently obvious to me that 1/2 moon shape indicates formation at the surface and a more rounded or football shape would indicate subsurface formation. Just look at features that we have today. A surface river forms a channel with a rounded bottom but the upper surface is flat since there is nothing but air above it.

Cross section of a typical river.

While a channel forming underground is more rounded. Why wouldn't the material above the channel collapse into the newly formed channel since that material was still wet. Or was the upper material dry and the lower material wet.

Here is more like we would expect an underground flow to look like:

Now, why would it be obvious to me, or any of us, that the channels in the Muav were carved by subsurface flows?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 713 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:10 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 729 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:54 AM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 728 of 894 (820090)
09-16-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 716 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:24 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
The bottom image shows where the fungal combs were found in that location. In the upper section they were found within the roots.

Paleosols were probably just organically rich soils that were compressed in the laying down of the strata.

Preserved intact through a raging flood? With root systems and fungal combs in place? Rather implausible I would say.

Those pictures don't help I'm afraid. I can't picture how the items were found in situ from such displays.

That's just simple denial and unwillingness to consider evidence. Good show.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 716 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:24 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 730 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:55 AM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 732 of 894 (820094)
09-16-2017 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 727 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:46 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
Have you examined the contact between the Temple Butte Fm and the Muav Limestone to determine if there are indeed no pebbles and stones there? No, you haven't.

Others have and they determined that they were in fact stream beds. You can't make out a clear image I posted of paleosols and in situ roots, but you can tell from a picture taken from probably 100+ yards away that there is no stream bed debris in the bottom of those channels that are cut into the Muav. Come on, your just making stuff up.

HBD

Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 727 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:46 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 733 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:18 PM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 734 of 894 (820097)
09-16-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 729 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:54 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
So how did the Temple Butte limestone flow between the Redwall and the Muav in this image:

(Note: The left side appears to be closer in the foreground.)

???


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 729 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:54 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 736 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:24 PM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 735 of 894 (820098)
09-16-2017 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 733 by Faith
09-16-2017 12:18 PM


Re: the usual miserable finale
Accusing me of foul motives is pretty cheap debate form.

I didn't address your motives. I am questioning your ability to make rational conclusions about images you see on your computer screen.

ABE: Ignoring evidence presented to you while going on and on about how no one has ever rebutted your assertions is what is bad debate form.

ABE2:

The "others" who determined that the channels were stream beds couldn't see it any other way because they assume that it was originally on the surface because of their belief in OE theory. Paradigm influence.

Now who is using the motivations of others as a debate tactic? Hint: it's YOU!

HBD

Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.

Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 733 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 737 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:26 PM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 738 of 894 (820103)
09-16-2017 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 730 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:55 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
What's with this "raging" bit? The only raging part would have been at the very beginning and then it most likely quieted down as the water rose over the land.

Oh that's right. I meant the "gentle" flood. That quietly carried huge chunks of sediment and paleosol blocks around and gently deposited them where it willed and covered them carefully with gently deposited sediments.

Wouldn't it have taken a tremendous amount of energy to strip all the land away and suspend all those sediments so as to have enough material to deposit the layers of the GC miles think? How could large sections of paleosols survive that?

Which way do you want it raging or gentle?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 730 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:55 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 739 of 894 (820104)
09-16-2017 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 736 by Faith
09-16-2017 12:24 PM


Re: the usual miserable finale
That looks like the Temple Butte limestone was originally laid down as a layer between the Redwall and the Muav when all of them were wet.

No... the temple Butte flowed between the Redwall and the Muav and formed channels, remember? We were just discussing that not even 10 minutes ago.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 736 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 741 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:39 PM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 740 of 894 (820105)
09-16-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 737 by Faith
09-16-2017 12:26 PM


Re: the usual miserable finale
Paradigm influence is not about motives, it's about conditioned seeing.

Well, I called you on your "conditional seeing" and you accused me of attacking your motives, so... what is it?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 737 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:26 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 742 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:41 PM herebedragons has responded

  
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