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Author Topic:   Evidence of the flood
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1335 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 256 of 899 (819356)
09-09-2017 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
09-09-2017 7:31 PM


Re: Atheistic science?
But the question still stands, what if He exists and He made the whole physical universe and science is ignoring Him? You're going to get a lot of things wrong.

But what if no gods exist, and someone bases their whole belief and interpretive systems on the existence of a particular god or gods? They're going to get a lot of things wrong.

But how do you tell which is right? One side relies on scriptures and beliefs (which are notoriously unreliable and on a world-wide basis are not in agreement with one another), and the other side relies on verifiable evidence and logic (which, while not always correct is at least self-correcting over time).

[If you believe that science should be subservient to religion, perhaps you should inquire to the Discovery Institute for part-time work. That's right up their alley.]


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 257 of 899 (819357)
09-09-2017 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
09-09-2017 7:31 PM


Re: Atheistic science?
God is known by other means than physical science because He Himself is not physical.

This thread is not about whether God exists, which yes, is beyond the realm of science, but about whether the Flood, which few here seem to suggest is about the non-physical, happened. Unless the Flood itself is not an empirical, evidence leaving quantity, then I think your question, while interesting, is not really germane to the topic.

Did God Create the universe? may well be a question unanswerable by scientific means. But the questions of whether the Sun and Moon were created on day four, and whether there was ever a canopy of water above the dome of the sky are certainly questions that science may have some input into. Apparently, the scientific answer to those questions is no.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

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We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 258 of 899 (819360)
09-10-2017 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Faith
09-09-2017 7:21 PM


Re: Atheistic science?
quote:

But any of those terms imply that God is left out of the scientific reckoning so my question still is What if there is a God who made it all and science is ignoring Him?

It still would not imply that science was at all wrong about the Flood, or the age of the Earth or evolution. You might be able to deal with some arguments against your belief by invoking convenient miracles but the evidence would still say that the Flood never happened, that the Earth is very old, that the fossil record shows how life on Earth has changed over time.

So really your point is just an attempt to discredit science by appealing to prejudice. Which might fool uninformed Christians but was never going to work here.


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Rrhain
Member (Idle past 1101 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 259 of 899 (819364)
09-10-2017 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by NoNukes
09-09-2017 10:54 PM


Re: Atheistic science?
NoNukes writes:

quote:
This thread is not about whether God exists, which yes, is beyond the realm of science

No, it isn't. Not that the thread isn't about this or that but rather that the question of god's existence is "beyond the realm of science."

No, it isn't. God is an object. Any object that interacts with us will necessarily leave traces. Those trace can be examined by science. It's how we know that somebody was in the room with the dead body and thus the body died not from any sort of natural cause or accident but because of murder.

A god that leaves no trace upon the universe is not actually interacting with the universe and thus, has no connection with it nor is it responsible for anything we might see in it.

Note, this isn't denying that god's work might be subtle and difficult to detect. Instead, it's about the claim that it is "beyond the realm of science." By stating that, you necessarily remove god from any possible position within the universe. God either interacts with the universe or not and if god does, then god is susceptible to scientific investigation.

For example, there are those who claim that god create a world-wide flood approximately 4500 years ago.

That is a claim that can be scientifically examined. Should that examination determine that there was no world-wide flood approximately 4500 years ago (or any time), then that necessarily means that that god does not exist.

So no, the question of the existence of god is most definitely within the realm of science.

You just need to define what you mean by "god." Of course, a definition that is so vague that it cannot be used means it does not exist for objects without definition by necessity do not exist.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 634 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 260 of 899 (819367)
09-10-2017 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Minnemooseus
09-09-2017 8:08 PM


Re: The seas came in and the seas went out (repeatedly)
AT THIS POINT I WAS GOING TO PUT IN THAT WONDERFUL WALTHER'S LAW GRAPHIC, BUT IT HAS BEEN LOST TO THE DEMISE OF FREE PHOTOBUCKET.

Tell me about it. Their switch to requiring an upgrade cost to post pictures for "third party streaming" is a major bummer.

So I'm now using a facebook account to hold pictures. It's clunky but free ... at this point ...

mad


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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Percy
Member
Posts: 20739
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 261 of 899 (819369)
09-10-2017 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Faith
09-09-2017 6:56 PM


Re: Atheistic science?
Faith writes:

I was answering Coyote. Read in context.

Well, that's an evasive non-answer. Apparently you have no interest in actually discussing evidence of the flood, and you're trying to change the subject to "God Did It!"

If you'd like to discuss evidence for the flood, the actual topic of this thread, then please do so.

If you'd like to discuss evidence of God, find another thread or propose a new one.

--Percy


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Percy
Member
Posts: 20739
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 262 of 899 (819371)
09-10-2017 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Faith
09-09-2017 6:59 PM


Faith writes:

I'm repeating either that there is evidence for the Flood or the evidence itself in this series of posts,...

You have not introduced evidence for the flood in this thread, nor in any thread. Empty assertions that you've made many times before and that you've then abandoned defense of just as many times is not evidence. All your assertions have serious problems that render them impossible. These serious problems have been described for you many, many times. Simply repeating your bald assertions yet again when you know you've always run away from the rebuttals is false discourse.

...and since I'm getting back assertions that there is no evidence blah blah blah I think my responses are quite in order.

What you're mostly doing is trying to change the subject to "God Did It!" If that's what you want to discuss, find another thread.

--Percy


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JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 263 of 899 (819375)
09-10-2017 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Minnemooseus
09-09-2017 8:08 PM


Re: The seas came in and the seas went out (repeatedly)

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JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 264 of 899 (819376)
09-10-2017 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by RAZD
09-10-2017 7:16 AM


Re: The seas came in and the seas went out (repeatedly)
Yeah, $400/year is ridiculous.

Imgur is pretty good.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 634 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 265 of 899 (819378)
09-10-2017 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by JonF
09-10-2017 8:55 AM


Re: The seas came in and the seas went out (repeatedly)
Yeah, $400/year is ridiculous.

With no grandfathering to keep old photos that have been used, it's outrageous. Bait and Switch?

Imgur is pretty good.

Maybe. Also looking at ImageVenue.com.

But I've been burned twice now by hosting companies, so call me skeptical ...

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 673 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 266 of 899 (819380)
09-10-2017 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Percy
09-10-2017 7:52 AM


I'm not interested in this thread, and all I am doing is responding to other posts.

As for evidence I've given lots of it on other threads, and if you are denying that, you are playing a really nasty game here.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33887
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 267 of 899 (819382)
09-10-2017 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
09-10-2017 10:54 AM


Do you even know what evidence is Faith?
Faith writes:

As for evidence I've given lots of it on other threads, and if you are denying that, you are playing a really nasty game here.

Frankly I don't think you know what the word "evidence" means. But the fact is, reality is, the truth is, that since there has never been a world-wide flood during the time humans existed you cannot have provided any evidence of a either of the Biblical Flood myths.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(3)
Message 268 of 899 (819383)
09-10-2017 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
09-10-2017 10:54 AM


No, darlin', you are the one with the nasty game. You post blind assertions, abandon the threads they are in, and then over and over claim "I posted evidence over there." For fifteen years now. I know that you apparently believe it the day you post it, but that does not stop it from being bullshit.

"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 634 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 269 of 899 (819384)
09-10-2017 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Faith
09-09-2017 6:55 PM


Auntie Faith science?
Because you are a wind-up talking cupie doll with a set program of simple arguments that never changes.

Someone posts a "trigger" word or phrase and you come in with guns blazing ... except that it is tired, old, refuted garbage.

or something like that


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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jar
Member
Posts: 33887
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 270 of 899 (819386)
09-10-2017 1:40 PM


Why the Bible is not evidence of a flood.
I think it's important to understand why the Bible should be rejected as evidence of a world-wide flood.

A Bible story is what is described as poor, unreliable evidence. The Biblical Flood stories are particularly poor, unreliable evidence.

First, there are at least two stories, the two stories contradict each other on key parts, both are anonymous and without known authorship. In addition, all of the physical evidence, not just some, but 100% of the physical evidence, contradicts both tales.

The Bible as evidence in this case is about like the police department getting calls saying there was an explosion at the factory and everyone was killed only to find when they respond that the factory is fine, everyone is fine, no one noticed an explosion and everywhere anyone investigates the physical evidence shows that there was no explosion and that even years and years afterwards there is no indication the incident happened.

At best, the Bible stories are only evidence that at least two different peoples, two different cultures had folk tales relating to floods. When you understand that many cultures have myths about floods, many that predate and parallel the Bible Stories and are from cultures the authors of the Bible stories would be familiar with and cultures that also appear in other Bible stories from the same relative time period, the the Bible Flood myths become even less reliable than they already were.

Unless actual physical evidence can be presented that there was a world-wide flood during the time humans existed any assertions that one or both of the Biblical floods reflects reality should be at best, met with pity and compassion for the poor individual who has been deluded.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

  
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