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Author Topic:   "Natural" (plant-based) Health Solutions
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 421 of 606 (830072)
03-20-2018 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by Faith
03-20-2018 5:21 PM


Re: A couple of studies
Huge studies also are dealing with too many complications to give a reliable result though.
That's always going to be the weakness of studies like this which deal with huge cohorts over long periods of time. To be fair to the authors of the Adventists study, they go to some lengths to control for confounding lifestyle variables.
As I said I think we get better information from small controlled studies like Esselstyn's.
Well cleaner data, sure, but the health outcomes we're talking about can take decades to become clear. You can't keep test subjects cooped up for that long.
This trade-off between accuracy of data and breadth of data is one which statisticians are familiar with. It's worth remembering that all studies on diet are necessarily going to face these sorts of problems. It is a genuinely challenging field.
The best that you or I can do is to engage with the research and try to bear the limitations of any given study in mind in deciding how much weight to give it.
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Faith, posted 03-20-2018 5:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Faith, posted 03-20-2018 6:17 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 422 of 606 (830073)
03-20-2018 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 418 by Granny Magda
03-20-2018 5:07 PM


Re: A couple of studies
I remain curious as to what you think this example proves. He improved his diet. His health improved. That is no big whoop.
It's a big whoop because most people just keep going through life with whatever problems they have, such as his overweight and his immune deficiency skin disease, knowing vaguely they aren't eating or living right but just going on doing it because they don't really know what is causing what for sure, and accepting the medicine approach to everything because it's pushed by doctors, so it's eyeopining to see a specific approach actually work for somebody. Nothing but juiced fruits and vegetables cured this guy. That IS a big whoop. It CURED him.
Most of us have have tried a bunch of diets and it's common knowledge that relapse is the rule rather than the exception. It gets pretty discouraging. It's like nobody knows anything for sure, there's nothing really trustworthy out there. But this one looks sustainable. This is good food, it can be made very appealing. The growing information about nutrition gives us a handle on our health the usual medical approaches don't offer, and some of the medical approaches are so hard on us we'd rather die anyway.
The only claim I made for the Adventist study was that it showed greater longevity for Adventists over nonAdventists and for vegetarian Advantists over nonvegetarian Adventists, that's all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by Granny Magda, posted 03-20-2018 5:07 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by Granny Magda, posted 03-20-2018 6:17 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 423 of 606 (830076)
03-20-2018 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by Granny Magda
03-20-2018 5:44 PM


Re: A couple of studies
Well cleaner data, sure, but the health outcomes we're talking about can take decades to become clear. You can't keep test subjects cooped up for that long.
Esselstyn took a group of people with severe heart disease, which worked itself down to 18 individuals who among them had had I think it was 48 heart attacks in eight years, or heart "events" or something like that, and on the diet he gave them, all but one of them went another twelve years without a single heart problem of any kind, and in at least one case it was shown on xray that a major heart vessel that had been just about closed was now opened up with no other intervention than the diet. Lim discussed this and the same study was part of the film "Forks over Knives" as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Granny Magda, posted 03-20-2018 5:44 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 430 by Granny Magda, posted 03-21-2018 2:43 PM Faith has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 424 of 606 (830077)
03-20-2018 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by Faith
03-20-2018 5:59 PM


Re: A couple of studies
It's a big whoop because most people just keep going through life with whatever problems they have, such as his overweight and his immune deficiency skin disease, knowing vaguely they aren't eating or living right but just going on doing it because they don't really know what is causing what for sure, and accepting the medicine approach to everything because it's pushed by doctors,
Let me stop you there.
If someone is overweight and overeating, they are absolutely not "accepting the medicine approach". They are, in fact, wantonly flouting it. The guy's doctor would have told him to lose weight; that is the mainstream advice. His doctor might also have told him that certain skin conditions are exacerbated by weight, another piece of mainstream advice. When he finally chose to follow that advice, his health improved. Big surprise.
Nothing but juiced fruits and vegetables cured this guy.
But did the fruits and vegetables actively cure his skin condition? Or did it simply improve in response to the weight loss facilitated by a healthier diet? We can't possibly say from only a single example.
That IS a big whoop. It CURED him.
It is a big deal for him personally. But you know perfectly well that's not what I meant. From an evidential viewpoint this anecdote proves nothing beyond conventional expectations.
The only claim I made for the Adventist study was that it showed greater longevity for Adventists over nonAdventists and for vegetarian Advantists over nonvegetarian Adventists, that's all.
The study's inclusion of blatant non-vegetarians in its "vegetarian" group substantially muddies the waters around that claim.
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Faith, posted 03-20-2018 5:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by Faith, posted 03-20-2018 6:39 PM Granny Magda has not replied
 Message 426 by Faith, posted 03-20-2018 9:03 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 425 of 606 (830080)
03-20-2018 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by Granny Magda
03-20-2018 6:17 PM


Re: A couple of studies
All I meant by the medicine approach was taking drugs for the skin disease. Apparently nobody told him that his urticarial was due to his weight so I'm not sure you are right about that.
Well, remind me, did the blatantly nonvegetarian vegetarian group live longer than the defined nonvegetarians or not?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 424 by Granny Magda, posted 03-20-2018 6:17 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 426 of 606 (830086)
03-20-2018 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by Granny Magda
03-20-2018 6:17 PM


Re: A couple of studies
But did the fruits and vegetables actively cure his skin condition? Or did it simply improve in response to the weight loss facilitated by a healthier diet? We can't possibly say from only a single example.
Actually we can. Looking up urticaria pigmentosa finds no association with weight gain or loss.
I conclude it was the juicing that cured it, and it IS totally cured.
It is a big deal for him personally. But you know perfectly well that's not what I meant. From an evidential viewpoint this anecdote proves nothing beyond conventional expectations.
It's a big deal for the plant-based point of view, and it's a big deal for those of us trying to get off the diet loop and find something that really works and that's unquestionably good for us. He didn't choose to do a conventional diet, he was looking for a radically healthy way of life. I think it's pretty good evidence for the health value of eating nothing but fruits and vegetables.
ABE: However, no one anecdote, or study, or dietary system, is convincing by itself, at least not for me. I've needed to see lots of films and talks and interviews to get as convinced as I am of all this. And the many statistics that show health problems correlated with meat and dairy are a big part of the convincing too. The information about the conditions in which animals are raised, covered in many of the films, was a jolting additional influence I wasn't expecting. It's the whole package that has pushed me to this viewpoint, and that's why I think you can't stop with a few studies or any limited information. I was interested to see that Anthony Lim ended his talk by telling anyone who wants to get started in this direction to simply learn a lot more and keep learning about it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by Granny Magda, posted 03-20-2018 6:17 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by Granny Magda, posted 03-21-2018 2:25 PM Faith has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 427 of 606 (830096)
03-21-2018 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by Faith
03-20-2018 9:03 PM


Re: A couple of studies
Well, remind me, did the blatantly nonvegetarian vegetarian group live longer than the defined nonvegetarians or not?
Some did, some didn't. The pescaterians fared better than the vegans. Why not try reading it yourself. This is, after all, the study you cited. If you can't be arsed to even read the studies you cite I don't see how anyone can take you seriously when you talk about them.
GM writes:
But did the fruits and vegetables actively cure his skin condition? Or did it simply improve in response to the weight loss facilitated by a healthier diet? We can't possibly say from only a single example.
faith writes:
Actually we can.
No we cannot. As caffiene attempted to explain to you, a single case is not enough to determine cause.
Looking up urticaria pigmentosa finds no association with weight gain or loss.
Of course had you actually told me that it was urticaria, instead of vaguely referring to a "skin condition", I might have responded differently. This is what I mean when I say that you are being sloppy with terminology.
Now I know what we're actually talking about, I can respond properly.
There are to major problems here.
Firstly, hives, even chronic hives, can and does clear up of its own accord. The typical duration for chronic sufferers is one to five years. So it is impossible to rule out the possibility that Cross simply got better for reasons unrelated to diet.
Secondly, urticaria is typically treated with diet, yes, even in mainstream medicine. It is caused by allergies, often allergies to specific foods. So yes, Cross's hives were probably cured by diet, but not because he exposed himself to the healing powers of juice, but, much more likely, because his change in diet led him to exclude the substance that had been triggering his hives. Further, this approach to treating hives is utterly mainstream; there is nothing here that surpasses the mainstream medical understanding of hives.
All told, now I know that Cross had hives, this anecdote seems even more pathetic and pointless. There is no insight here that goes beyond what any mainstream doctor would tell you.
I conclude it was the juicing that cured it,
An unsupported conclusion. It's more likely that he simply stopped exposing n=himself to an allergen when he changed his diet rather than being actively cured by juices.
It's a big deal for the plant-based point of view, and it's a big deal for those of us trying to get off the diet loop and find something that really works and that's unquestionably good for us.
It's not a big deal if you are only echoing what real clinicians have already been telling you. It is especially unimpressive when alt-med practitioners tout their methods and insights as being an alternative to mainstream medicine, only to end up parroting what doctors have long known to be the case. This is part of a familiar pattern of alt-med proponents attempting to co-opt the insights of scientific medicine as if they were their own and falsely label mainstream practises - such as dietary interventions - as "alternative".
He didn't choose to do a conventional diet, he was looking for a radically healthy way of life
He chose to switch to a diet that was much lower in saturated fat, lower in calories and lower in refined carbs, just as any mainstream doctor would have told him to.
However, no one anecdote, or study, or dietary system, is convincing by itself, at least not for me. I've needed to see lots of films and talks and interviews to get as convinced as I am of all this.
Sure, I hear where you're coming from. However, the plural of anecdote is not data. If you round up a whole bunch of anecdotes, each of which individually amounts to nothing, you still end up with nothing.
And the many statistics that show health problems correlated with meat and dairy are a big part of the convincing too.
Faith, no-one is disputing that some health problems are caused or exacerbated by diet. But just because some problems can be tackled through diet doesn't mean that all are.
I agree that most of the diets you're talking about are healthy; I just take issue with the claims of active curative properties, for which I see little evidence, especially in the case of nutritional cancer therapies.
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by Faith, posted 03-20-2018 9:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by Faith, posted 03-21-2018 2:39 PM Granny Magda has not replied
 Message 429 by PaulK, posted 03-21-2018 2:41 PM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 436 by herebedragons, posted 03-21-2018 3:18 PM Granny Magda has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 428 of 606 (830097)
03-21-2018 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by Granny Magda
03-21-2018 2:25 PM


Re: A couple of studies
I should have said urticarial pigmentosa which is not the same thing as simple urticaria. I'm sorry but I don't remember things well, don't know where to look for them, and I did manage to remember urticaria but not the pigmentosa part until I read up on it. I'm sorry, you are right that I'm not careful about all this but I don't mean to mislead you, I'm just not up to a whole lot these days.
For instance I'd like to remember the ailments of the man who was treated in the film Forks and Knives but I can't and haven't been able to locate it either. He was on medications for the usual stuff, cholesterol, blood pressure etc. and had a list of 27 symptoms that were bothering him, such as not sleeping well, sinus problems, acid reflux etc etc., and after being put on the plant diet for twelve weeks was off all the meds, had better than normal numbers even, and no longer had 26 of the 27 problems on his list.
But the most dramatic study still is Esselstyn's eighteen patients with severe heart disease who were actually cured on a plantbased diet.
There's another story in Forks over Knives of a woman athlete who got breast cancer and stopped her activfities, but then did McDougall's diet which gave her back her health and in her seventies is running marathons.
Other athletes in the film, an other films too, talk about imp;rovements in their performance when they went on this kind of diet. Since they are athletes they were already following what they believed to be the optimum diet for their activity, but when they gave up the meat they found that their ability improved.
You don't like anecdotes though.
Sorry.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Granny Magda, posted 03-21-2018 2:25 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 429 of 606 (830098)
03-21-2018 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by Granny Magda
03-21-2018 2:25 PM


Re: A couple of studies
quote:
Faith, no-one is disputing that some health problems are caused or exacerbated by diet. But just because some problems can be tackled through diet doesn't mean that all are.
I agree that most of the diets you're talking about are healthy; I just take issue with the claims of active curative properties, for which I see little evidence, especially in the case of nutritional cancer therapies.
Exactly. I’m suspicious of the claims about diabetes, too. Less processed food and less sugar is certainly likely to be good for diabetics, but the only diet-based treatment that seems likely to reverse diabetes (type 2 diabetes, not type 1) is an extremely calorie-restricted diet. It works in mice, and I seem to recall it shows some promise in humans.
But proper testing is the key. Anyone who makes claims of cures based only on anecdotes is almost certainly a quack.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Granny Magda, posted 03-21-2018 2:25 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by Granny Magda, posted 03-21-2018 3:06 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 430 of 606 (830099)
03-21-2018 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Faith
03-20-2018 6:17 PM


Re: A couple of studies
Esselstyn took a group of people with severe heart disease, which worked itself down to 18 individuals
It's a little more complicated than that. He started with 24 patients. He lost 6 because they couldn't stick with the program. That in itself is a major problem. A regime that people can't stick to is useless.
There was no control group. A study with a cohort of 18 is no control is spectacularly poor. This is a major problem.
Further, 9 out of Esselstyn's 18 had previously has coronary bypass surgery and two had undergone angioplasty of a coronary artery. To exclude these surgical interventions as possible causal factors is bizarre and wilfully ignorant.
Also, Esselstyn's patients were all on cholesterol-reducing drugs, including statins.
This is a terrible study.
I also note that Esselstyn's regime is very extreme. He thinks you shouldn't eat oil, of any kind, ever. He is against eating nuts. He says "Do not juice". He seems quite the quack. I don't see that the two of you share much common ground.
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Faith, posted 03-20-2018 6:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by Faith, posted 03-21-2018 2:54 PM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 432 by Faith, posted 03-21-2018 3:05 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 431 of 606 (830100)
03-21-2018 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by Granny Magda
03-21-2018 2:43 PM


Re: A couple of studies
Yes Esselstyn is extreme and I know I couldn't follow his program. I hope this kind of study will be repeated with a less extreme regimen. He asked for the most difficult cases and was given these so I doubt the ones you mention who had had surgery were somehow less complicated as you seem to think. AND I'm sure those who were on drugs came off them when the diet improved their conditions.
I do get frustrated trying to defend things that are much better defended in the films I keep talking about. Esselstyn is no quack.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Granny Magda, posted 03-21-2018 2:43 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by Granny Magda, posted 03-21-2018 3:19 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 432 of 606 (830101)
03-21-2018 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by Granny Magda
03-21-2018 2:43 PM


Re: A couple of studies
No, standard clinicians are NOT prescribing plantbased diets, no they are not. They know NOTHING about this. They prescribe meds and treat diet as an adjunct and it's not anything like the diets I'm talking about.
You are wrong.
Maybe you are turning a lot of people away from this idea and that's too bad. Your stickler mentality doesn't convince me of much though. It's the overall picture that I'm convinced of and the flaws in particular cases are irrelevant because the main principles still work, and they are not what standard doctors propose..
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Granny Magda, posted 03-21-2018 2:43 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by herebedragons, posted 03-21-2018 3:09 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 440 by Granny Magda, posted 03-21-2018 3:38 PM Faith has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 433 of 606 (830102)
03-21-2018 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 429 by PaulK
03-21-2018 2:41 PM


Re: A couple of studies
Hi Paul,
Yeah, some interesting stuff came out last year on preventing so-called "pre-diabetics" from developing full-blown diabetes and even reversing existing type II diabetes, with diet. It's promising stuff, but I have to say that the diets being recommended are nothing like the extreme diets Faith is touting, they're just low-fat, calorie-restricted diets. Nor is it particularly surprising that diabetes is susceptible to diet-based treatments, given that it is a disease closely tied to diet.
I agree that anecdotes are the calling card of a quack. Another indicator of whackiness seems to be that the quacks love to claim actual cures. Not preventative effects or risk mitigation or anything sensible that we might all agree on, but actual full-blown cures. They just have to go too far. When I hear nutritionists make these claims my sceptic sense starts tingling...
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by PaulK, posted 03-21-2018 2:41 PM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by Faith, posted 03-21-2018 3:14 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 434 of 606 (830103)
03-21-2018 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by Faith
03-21-2018 3:05 PM


Re: A couple of studies
Maybe you are turning a lot of people away from this idea and that's too bad. Your stickler mentality doesn't convince me of much though. It's the overall picture that I'm convinced of and the flaws in particular cases are irrelevant because the main principles still work, and they are not what standard doctors propose..
Hmmm... this sounds familiar... where have I heard this before???
Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 435 of 606 (830104)
03-21-2018 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 433 by Granny Magda
03-21-2018 3:06 PM


Re: A couple of studies
Watch Lim's presentation.
Watch Forks over Knives.
Watch What the Health

This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by Granny Magda, posted 03-21-2018 3:06 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by PaulK, posted 03-21-2018 3:22 PM Faith has replied
 Message 439 by Granny Magda, posted 03-21-2018 3:23 PM Faith has not replied

  
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