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Author Topic:   Lucy (Australopithecus)
Phat
Member
Posts: 15704
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 34 of 88 (820007)
09-15-2017 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taq
09-15-2017 11:31 AM


Taq writes:

It is always better to go to the original source, the scientists who actually did the science. Creationists on creationist websites aren't doing the science.

That make sense.

Next question: Is there only one way to do the science or are there several ways? If several, must the conclusions match up?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Taq, posted 09-15-2017 11:31 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Taq, posted 09-18-2017 10:35 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15704
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 35 of 88 (820009)
09-15-2017 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Porkncheese
09-15-2017 11:24 AM


Compare and Contrast
PnC writes:

Otherwise it sounds as though you dismiss a source if written by a creationist regardless of whether the argument is secular. That's not science, it's just childish.
Another example of debating a person's view and not the subject.

I often observe that there is a prejudice against creationism. The reasoning is that creationists are not scientists--or so we are told. Perhaps we should compare and contrast methodologies used in forming conclusions---to see if secular science and creationism science are using the same tools and methods.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Porkncheese, posted 09-15-2017 11:24 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Coyote, posted 09-15-2017 6:38 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 73 by Taq, posted 09-18-2017 10:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15704
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


(1)
Message 67 of 88 (820155)
09-16-2017 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Porkncheese
09-16-2017 3:04 PM


Re: Confession
For what its worth--here is my 2 cents ...

First, much of what you say is true. We are a bunch of old (well...aging) men who sit around here in our spare time and debate arguments largely centered on science vs faith. Many of us are highly educated and know the science.

Critical thinking is encouraged. Biblical Creationism is often attacked and creationists are challenged to provide evidence.

But let me address your situation. Sounds like your parents have a traditional faith outlook on life, yet are not extreme apart from that. As is normal, you rebelled against being a mere clone of your family and became agnostic while you sorted out your feelings and beliefs. Quite common at age 19. I respect that you stuck it out as long as you have...and implore you again to spend more time studying. Also, humble yourself and ask your parents to forgive your tirade...they only want to see you humble and not proud. What they have taught you, while not scientific, is real...it comes from the heart and soul, regardless of whether you end up a believer in God and the Bible or whether you continue to question it. They sound like decent folks and I will pray for you and your relationship with them.

The guys here have thick skin and challenged you without knowledge of your internal conflict between emotions and facts. They all want to teach younger people (as well as older people) how to think dispassionately about science and methodology...they are in no way attacking you personally unless they are teasing...which they sometimes do.

My advice? Love your parents and study hard. You are on the right track, whether you end up being a scientist, a teacher, or even a pastor.

Perhaps you came here not to learn about the ToE or science, but to resolve the cognitive dissonance you felt existed between your parent's faith and your own questions. Be honest with them. Tell them that yes, you can be a stubborn one but you have no intention of disrespecting them or their beliefs.

They love you regardless, I'm quite sure. Carry on...and study hard!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Porkncheese, posted 09-16-2017 3:04 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15704
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 71 of 88 (820243)
09-18-2017 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Pressie
09-18-2017 8:37 AM


Re: Confession
Perhaps this was what was on his mind all along. He wanted to find a gentler way to explain his questioning to his parents and was sorry that he had snapped at them.

Not every student that comes to our forum is out to prove anything about creationism nor to become better informed about ToE or other science. Some folk just like to come and hear an opinion on life, Pressie. You know that!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Pressie, posted 09-18-2017 8:37 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15704
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 76 of 88 (820248)
09-18-2017 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Taq
09-18-2017 10:38 AM


Re: there is no culture of truth or honesty in Creationism.
The armchair psychologist (without a degree) within me says that P&C was challenging his own character. He has an anger problem, as do many of us...and he wanted to find some wisdom to support his questions...but not so much for school as for his belief and view on life. Going to an anonymous forum on the internet is a safe place to rant..until you get suspended.

In a way, I suspect that Faith is similar...she has an internal cognitive dissonance that she cannot and will not give up under any circumstances.

To be honest, I am the same way regarding not only whether Jesus existed (He Had To!) or whether Jesus is God (If not, that shoots my whole boat full of holes and I may as well sink into the nasty sea of agnosticism..)

Honestly though...my faith remains. I couldnt live without it very easily.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Taq, posted 09-18-2017 10:38 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Taq, posted 09-18-2017 10:53 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 81 by dwise1, posted 09-19-2017 3:34 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15704
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 82 of 88 (820367)
09-19-2017 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by dwise1
09-19-2017 3:34 PM


Re: there is no culture of truth or honesty in Creationism.
So then, the situation could be that campus Christians have marked Porky for conversion and have started working on him. And it could very well be his new friends who are working on him.
Oh wow! Your hypothesis is way different than what I was assuming..(though plausible in hypotheticals) as I had P&C having been raised in a fundamentalist home and rebelling against it in general...blowing up at his parents and attempting to debunk the literalism of the Bible...then later feeling guilty and attempting to find a middle path here at this forum...But you could be right, I never thought of that scenario.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by dwise1, posted 09-19-2017 3:34 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by dwise1, posted 09-19-2017 8:46 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15704
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 84 of 88 (820383)
09-19-2017 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by dwise1
09-19-2017 8:46 PM


Re: there is no culture of truth or honesty in Creationism.
Great detective work! I missed that he was raised Catholic. Given that, your scenario makes more sense than mine...pork n cheese if you are reading this, chime in. We are most certainly not out to recruit you, and we do respect Catholics...well most of us!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by dwise1, posted 09-19-2017 8:46 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15704
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


(2)
Message 88 of 88 (820416)
09-20-2017 9:59 AM


High Fiving The Meltdown?
You all are being condescending towards him. Yes, I know he did the same to you, but you are simply confirming his disdain for this place. Show a little respect, gentlemen. We are not out to tear apart newbies, are we? How do expect anyone to aspire to want to come back with talk like this?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

  
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