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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 111 of 1540 (821031)
10-01-2017 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
09-30-2017 1:36 PM


Faith markets anti-Christianity.
Yawn.

Until you learn that the message of Jesus has nothing to do with salvation you will remain lost and just a GOAT.

It's a shame that so much of today's Christianity is based on the conman salvation snake oil instead of following what Jesus taught.


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 Message 109 by Faith, posted 09-30-2017 1:36 PM Faith has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 124 of 1540 (821058)
10-01-2017 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
10-01-2017 4:26 PM


Faith writes:

That's all it took for Adam and Eve to lose their standing with God, and most of us commit sins against the Moral Law every day.

Except of course for the fact that in the Bible Adam & Eve did not lose their standing with God or earn eternal damnation . That is all crap that the Christian snake oil salesmen and conmen made up.


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 10-02-2017 8:51 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 128 of 1540 (821078)
10-02-2017 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
10-02-2017 8:51 AM


Re: Snake Eyes
Phat writes:

They would eventually die, however. For some reason, God posted a guard at the tree of life.

Not exactly Phat. The God was afraid that they would eat from the Tree of Life and become immortal. It was the God characters fear that led to the expulsion from the Garden and the guard on the gate.

Of course all the other critters were free to eat from the Tree of Life and become immortal yet their is no evidence of any immortal animals.

Phat writes:

They had to work for a living and become responsible, rather than get a free pass to eternity.

There is nothing about any free pass in the story.

Phat writes:

The snake lied. They did not become as gods.

Again Phat, that is NOT what the story says; the story clearly says and the God character confirms that the Snake tells the truth and the God lies. They do not surely die the day they eat from the Tree of Knowledge and according to the God character they do become like God to know right from wrong.

Have you ever actually read the Bible Phat?


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 10-02-2017 8:51 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 10-02-2017 9:57 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 129 of 1540 (821079)
10-02-2017 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by PaulK
10-02-2017 9:25 AM


Re: Snake Eyes
The issue seems to be that Biblical Christians don't like what the Bible actually says and so they make up additional stories to believe instead of what is actually there.

There was a marvelous movie that we were taken to see (I was a boarder at a Christian Church School) back in 1960 IIRC called Never on Sunday. The main character was Ilya, a Greek Prostitute who loved the Greek Tragedies, but rewrote them to always have a happy ending with everyone going to the beach for a party.

Biblical Christians are just like Ilya.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 132 of 1540 (821082)
10-02-2017 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Phat
10-02-2017 9:57 AM


Re: Snake Eyes
Phat writes:

jar writes:

Have you ever actually read the Bible Phat?

You always say this and frankly its arrogant. Why not pull up a stump and set a spell...you might actually learn something new. As may I.

Bullshit. It is not arrogant when you post stuff like the snake lied in reference to the Genesis 2&3 story.

When you post something like that one really has to wonder if you ever read the story.

Phat writes:

Are you suggesting that reality involves bad endings? I would certainly think that if we did become as gods we would make good endings. Perhaps Biblical Christians see God as always being on their side and can't conceive of a bad ending. Can you?

Have you ever read anything?

Reality is.

Humans determine what good or bad is, what right or wrong is and that is the major point of the Genesis Garden of Eden story.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 10-02-2017 9:57 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 10-02-2017 10:11 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 135 of 1540 (821087)
10-02-2017 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
10-02-2017 10:11 AM


Try honesty Phat.
Phat writes:

I would argue, however, that we are far from gods.

Which, even if it were true is TOTALLY irrelevant to what the Garden of Eden story says. What you think the story should say, what you believe the story should say, is irrelevant when compared to reality and the reality is contained in what the story actually says.

Phat writes:

I was looking up the Strongs Hebrew for God and gods in the story and its the same word! That snake had the audacity to suggest that we were just like Elohim! The snake surely wasn't. The snake was cunning, which implies deceit. As a plot device, emphasizing that the snake told the truth and that God lied sorta throws a wrench in the whole concept of who the good guy and the bad guy are. I mean, how many cunning people do you know that end up tricking you by telling the truth? (Partial truths)

YAWN!

You prove my point Phat.

Strongs is NOT the Bible.

The snake in the story did not compare Adam or Eve to God but rather told the truth, that if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil they would become more like God.

And, in the story, the God character affirms that they did become more like God.

You want good guys and bad guys. Reality though, even in the Bible stories, is that life is NOT black and white. We determine good and bad. That knowledge requires accountability and judgement. It is not easy.

The authors of the stories were far more complex than today's audience. Biblical Christians, like Ilya, seem to want to rewrite the Greek Tragedies so that everyone is happy and they all go to the sea shore.

BUT... that is NOT what is written in the stories.

Knowing good from evil is not easy.

Knowing what should be done is not easy.

Jesus mission and message is NOT John 3:16. That is the author of John's marketing; the snake oil salesman's spiel.

The snake was honest. The God character was the one who withheld information and flat out lied.

But like Ilya, you don't want the complex ending. You want Medea and Jason and the kids to all go to the beach and live happily ever after.

But that is not what the story says.


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jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 139 of 1540 (821100)
10-02-2017 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Phat
10-02-2017 11:31 AM


where the tension lies
Phat writes:

Not so much arrogant as careless.

How is my and many other people pointing out that the story simply does not say what Biblical Christians claim it says careless?

The thread is "The Tension of Faith".

You can believe that there is a God. That is an act of Faith.

If you claim there is a God rather than simply that you believe there is a God you move from a matter of Faith into an area of evidence and conclusion.

If you make a claim about what is in a story then that must actually be in the story.

Much of what is referred to in this thread as causing tension seems to be a desire to find evidence to support a belief.

That is a futile and self defeating exercise.

You don't want Jason to abandon Medea for another woman or for Medea to kill her own children or for Medea to not kill other people and for them all to go to the sea shore and have a party. But that is NOT how the story goes.

You want Oedipus to be a nice boy who loves his mom and dad. But that is NOT how the story goes.

You want God to be a jolly fellow that is always on your side and that will always protect you. But that is NOT how the story goes.

One of the great forces that drives people away from Christianity is Calvinist Biblical Inerrancy.

When you adopt the position that "Scripture in the original manuscripts does not affirm anything that is contrary to fact" you create an unavoidable tension because there are no original manuscripts and no one knows what might be in any original manuscripts and the Scripture that we do have does contain much that is contrary to fact.

Reality is; even if people wish otherwise.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 10-02-2017 11:31 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by NoNukes, posted 10-02-2017 2:38 PM jar has taken no action
 Message 141 by Phat, posted 10-02-2017 4:12 PM jar has taken no action
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 10-05-2017 9:30 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 148 of 1540 (821347)
10-06-2017 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
10-05-2017 9:30 PM


Re: where the tension lies
Phat writes:

OK let's settle this. Does the Bible clearly say that God chooses or does the issue imply that humans choose?

The Bible does not clearly say anything; the Bible is filled with contradictions and factual errors.

A basic problem within Christianity is the concept of "The Bible". That is a major error and had led to much of the perversion of the message that is Christianity Today.

Many chapters of Club Christian attempt to make the claim that there is such a thing as "The Bible™", that it is "One Book" and that it has "One Message". But the honest reality is that that is simply wrong.

Those positions are easily marketed to children. Those positions are based on assuming facts not only not in evidence but in honesty refuted by the material itself. Those positions can only be held by willful denial of truth and reality.

Remember, the Bible itself quotes Jesus as saying that both the Calvinists and the Araminianism position are wrong and that those who follow those positions are damning themselves to hell.

That's the beauty of "The Bible™". If you adopt the position that is held by either of those bodies then the Bible refutes your position. Unless of course you simply pretend that those passages don't exist and instead find quotes that support YOUR position. That's the beauty of something filled with contradictions.

AbE:

The answer is to remember that the Bible is NOT one book with one message.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


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jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 155 of 1540 (821363)
10-06-2017 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
10-06-2017 8:21 AM


Re: Are All Called?
Phat writes:

Does it really make sense that God has only chosen some and not all?

Remember, according to the Bible Jesus says that if you think you are chosen, if you think you are his followers, you are wrong.

Now according to the Bible those are teachings straight from Jesus, not from John, not from Paul, not From Peter, not from Calvin, not from Luther, not from Knox, not from Henry, not from James, not from a Pope but from Jesus directly.


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jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 160 of 1540 (821402)
10-06-2017 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Paboss
10-06-2017 8:13 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Welcome home. Pull up a stump and set a spell.

Paboss writes:

If the bible was the word of God it shouldn't be a problem to question it, because every question would have a good answer. But that is not what happen with it. How can a book that's full of contradictions, atrocities and absurdities be the word of an omniscient and all benevolent being?

The answer is that of course, it can't. So those who try to sell you the idea that there actually is such a thing as "The Bible™" and that it is the word of God are simply making stuff up, trying to sell you an unsupportable idea.

As a Christian I find it pitiful and that they try to market such a silly position; one that can only be maintained through willful ignorance.

That does not mean that the different Canons and the stories that get included in the different Canons are without value. But those who try to market Biblical Inerrancy or a Literal Bible can only do so my perverting what is actually said and what can actually be learned.


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jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 165 of 1540 (821414)
10-07-2017 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Paboss
10-07-2017 1:58 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Paboss writes:

Hi Jar,

Thank you for welcoming me to the site. Looking at a few of your posts I have the impression that you have a sound academic knowledge of the bible and other contemporary writings as well as the historical context in which they were written. I'm looking forward to learn some of that.

Let those who have ears, listen.

Remember that I am a devout Christian raised in a Christian home and educated in Christian schools. But only a fool or an utterly willfully dishonest person can deny that the God of the Bible is often described as ignorant, weak, unsure, dishonest, cruel, unreasonable and evil. But that simply reflects human bias and misrepresents what the authors of the stories were trying to say.

It is sad and pitiful that so much of Christianity today, particularly Biblical Christianity, is based on dishonesty and deceit and denial of reality.


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jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 173 of 1540 (821422)
10-07-2017 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
10-07-2017 6:56 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
LOL Too too funny.

Faith, thank you for confirming that there are contradictions in the Bible.

Faith writes:

I've been impressed with how kbertsche has been getting to the heart of the matters being discussed here, both in raising the question of whether the original readers would have seen contradictions in the Bible, and earlier in saying both the Arminian and Calvinist views are in the Bible when I was stumbling around the question.

ROTFLMAO

If both positions are in the Bible then that is a contradiction.

It really is that simple Faith.

And second, the original readers would have never even considered that there was such a thing as a Bible. That is a much, much, much, much, much later human creation.

The original readers would have seen a collection of stories, each independent and pretty much unrelated to the others. That is why there really are no references to Jesus in the Old Testaments. Any such associations are simply stuff made up by folk long after the original authors or readers were dead and buried.


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 10-07-2017 12:13 PM jar has replied
 Message 186 by kbertsche, posted 10-07-2017 2:18 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 188 of 1540 (821448)
10-07-2017 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Phat
10-07-2017 12:13 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Phat writes:

Logic tells me that I won't understand God any better by reading Confucious, Mencias, or Mark Twain.

Or Carroll or converse with Archy or any inspired writings. Let those with ears hear. Let those with eyes read. Mene mene tekel upharsin was not only written to Belshazzar. The hard part is seeing what is really there and hearing what is really said and then working to understand the meaning which almost always is NOT what you wanted to see, not what you wanted to hear, certainly not what you wanted it to mean.

Phat writes:

How can humanity begin to understand the message that Jesus tells us any better

Understand that Jesus message is not about what will happen to us but what we are charged to try to do. John 3:16 is NOT Jesus' message, not God's message, but John's marketing.

Phat writes:

I have gone and fed, clothed and comforted many people but all that I learned was that more needs to be done and that the rich always keep their money and the poor widows have to use their last two mites to give anyone any spare change.

But the charge is not what THEY should do. THEY don't enter into the message. Jesus message is that you should do what you can. It is not that you should be closer to Jesus or closer to God. Throw God away!!!!!!!

And you are not to do it for God, not do it for Jesus, not do it for thanks, not do it for salvation but because it is the right thing to do and it is stuff you can do.

You do what you can. You don't pay any attention to whether anyone else does it or expect anyone else to do anything.

You do what you can.

After you go and feed and clothe and comfort many people you realize that yes, there are still those who you can feed, you can clothe, you can comfort. Is there more left that you can do? Then rejoice; you still have duty, you still have a task, you are still needed.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 10-07-2017 12:13 PM Phat has seen this message

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 189 of 1540 (821449)
10-07-2017 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by kbertsche
10-07-2017 2:18 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
LOL

Fortunately theology is not physics and has little to do with reality.

But it certainly is a field to be plowed and sown by the apologists to grow dogma.

And in the case of the Bible, Yes Virginia, there really are contradictions.


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 192 of 1540 (821455)
10-07-2017 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Faith
10-07-2017 6:30 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
LOL

ROTFLMAO

Apologists can always make shit up.


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This message is a reply to:
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