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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 289 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 108 of 1540 (821012)
09-30-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
09-19-2017 10:10 AM


Another topic I felt needed addressing in the essay when I first read it is the idea that people go to Hell for failing to accept Jesus. The reality is that people go to Hell for their sins ...

... unless they believe in Jesus.

If someone said: "I'm going to kill people for breathing, unless they're non-Jewish", how does this differ from saying "I'm going to kill people for being Jewish"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 10:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 09-30-2017 1:36 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 289 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 112 of 1540 (821042)
10-01-2017 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
09-30-2017 1:36 PM


The problem with this reasoning is that it suggests God has some obligation to save people ...

I didn't say that, I was just discussing what his criterion is. He is in fact damning people for not believing in Jesus, because those are in fact the people he damns.

If he says "I'm going to damn all the people with original sin, unless they believe in Jesus", then since all people have original sin, he is in fact damning exactly and only those who don't believe in Jesus, so that's what they're going to Hell for.

We all deserve Hell, that's where you have to start.

Speak for yourself.

But you complain that those who refuse to give that little should not be damned even though the terms are very clear. As for those who never heard of Jesus, there are probably fewer these days than ever before thanks to missionaries, but if you like you could join in getting the word out so more might be saved.

Hey, predestination, remember? God has already decided who will be damned and who saved, and nothing we can do can interfere with his sovereign power of election. The number is fixed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 09-30-2017 1:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 10-01-2017 4:26 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 289 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 120 of 1540 (821053)
10-01-2017 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
10-01-2017 4:26 PM


Yeah but we don't know the number or who is and who isn't, so for all intents and purposes God's overarching sovereignty in predestination doesn't affect our choices.

But according to Calvin God makes all our choices for us too. We're like Leibnitz's windowless monads. God will march a missionary up to someone whom he's already decided to save. He'll make the missionary give his spiel. Then he'll make the person who heard the spiel believe --- not as a consequence of the missionary saying the thing, but because he'd already decided that that guy would believe and be saved. Not only is choice a delusion, but cause and effect is a charade.

Well, God has apparently decided that I'm not going to be one of his missionaries. Or believers.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 10-01-2017 4:26 PM Faith has taken no action

  
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