The Tension of Faith

This isn't the only passage. There's Luke 24:13-35 where two disciples meet the post-resurrection Jesus on the road and do not recognize him. But despite the experience of Mary and the disciples, you claim you have powers beyond theirs and have no trouble recognizing the supernatural, and that you've witnessed it many times.If that's what you believe then that's fine, but it's something you believe on faith, not evidence.All the angels and demons and apparitions and miracles and the supernatural that's part of the natural except for God who is the only part of the supernatural that lies outside the natural and sometimes manifestations of the supernatural are physical and sometimes they're not and the supernatural can't be studied even though it's part of the natural but despite that you have all this detailed knowledge of the supernatural and on and on, all this stuff is make believe. Again, if you want to believe it fine, but you sound like a crazy person, and clearly you understand that you sound like a crazy person.This thread's about faith. If you want to believe something on faith I don't think anyone here would have a problem with that. But you think you have evidence, and that evidence must be presented if you are to persuade anyone, but you instead respond that evidence isn't possible unless you first believe. That's why I keep comparing your beliefs to belief in Santa Claus, not because the comparison's perfect, but because the amount of evidence is equal. Evidence that is real is apparent to everyone. Evidence that is only apparent to believers isn't evidence but faith. This is amazingly detailed knowledge you have considering this is something that can't be studied. The reality is that you don't know if the supernatural is part of the natural. You don't know if apparitions are miracles. You can't see "disembodied invisible things". And who could even guess what "not strictly supernatural" means. I agree with you. The only difference between us is that I don't believe there were any miracles in the past, either. Great. "Physical events...within the physical world" can be studied. Where's the evidence for miracles? What do you mean, "If they [miracles] do occasionally occur today..."? Do you mean maybe you're wrong that there are no miracles today? All this "it could be this or it could be that" is just more evidence, as if more were needed, that you just make things up as you go along. Then from where came all this experience you claimed to have in telling the supernatural from the natural? But you've never seen a miracle, and you've only seen one apparition, and I presume you haven't seen any angels or demons, so where comes all this knowledge about how apparitions are non-physical while miracles are physical and neither leave evidence behind? The only thing consistent in what you've been saying is its inconsistency, it's contradictory nature, and it's lack of evidence of any sort.--Percy

Yes, of course it's silly, just like your belief that such a creature exists. As Jar already informed you, religious beliefs change over time, and there are few protestant denominations today who maintain that belief. The conflicts between Protestants and Catholics are as arguments over the emperors new clothes, over things that don't exist.You have a strong affinity for name-calling. For some strange reason the contradiction of taking Jesus' message of love and using it to cast names of hate at others isn't apparent to you.Faith, forget all these petty details that trouble your mind and cause you nothing but pain and hardship. Forget all the angels and demons and apparitions and miracles and supernatural and evidence. Just love everyone. That's what Jesus would do.--Percy

And you know this how?If humans are really heating up the planet and threatening our very existence, you'd want evidence for that, right? You wouldn't accept something some ancient Greek philosopher wrote a couple millennia ago as evidence, right? You understand the need for hard evidence as the basis for accepting the nature of the real world, right?So if the supernatural is actually part of the natural, if demons and angels and miracles and apparitions and God exist, present the evidence.--Percy

That's it? Just one? You've had only one supernatural experience? And from that single experience comes this claim of how easy it is to recognize the supernatural. This is from your Message 1111, the one that started this subdiscussion: So basically what you're admitting now is that you have the tiniest amount of experience possible in recognizing the supernatural, a single supposed sighting of an apparition, and yet you claim recognizing the supernatural is easy. You are still speaking through your hat and making things up. I assume that if you sewed a button on once that you'd be regaling people with how easy sewing is, how anyone could do it.Your success so far in this thread has only been in making outrageous, unsupported, baseless and often contradictory claims. I didn't say he was an apparition. It's you that keeps bringing up apparitions, apparently believing you saw one once. What do apparitions have to do with Jesus, God and Bible anyway? The word "apparition" appears in neither testament of the King James.Jesus' resurrection was a miracle, yet the miracle wasn't recognized. Even Jesus himself wasn't recognized. The resurrected Jesus was bodily evidence of the supernatural (evidence that you claim can't exist, even though it obviously did). Apparently recognizing the supernatural isn't that easy. The measure of how much sense you're making isn't how much sense you make to yourself, but how much sense you make to others. You can barely find a square inch of common ground with fellow believers. Your certainty in your own beliefs is just another of the delusions you suffer from. You're redefining terms again. The supernatural does not abide by the laws of the natural and cannot be part of the natural world. I doubt many share your views. Christians believe that God and angels and demons and Satan are supernatural, not natural. There seems to be some disagreement about this. If only God can perform miracles, then why, for example, does Revelation 16:14 say, "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles,..."Apparently Satan's spirits can work miracles. And just as apparently, you're making it up as you go along. Since I haven't yet been taken in by the many lines of malarkey you've been peddling, I think my brain is working just fine.--Percy

In other words, you have your beliefs, but you have no evidence that miracles no longer occur.You've been writing some parts of your last several messages in all caps, never a good sign for you. Try to hold it together there. And you know this how? Perhaps you can quote a few Bible passages indicating that at least you have a Biblical basis for your claims? And then once we've gotten that far you can present your evidence that what you say about demons is true. You don't know nothing. You're just spouting stuff.--Percy

Translation: They changed their beliefs. They proved it so well that few believe it anymore. What I am calling name-calling is exactly what it is. It's how you operate. If you can call something a derogatory name, that's what you do. It's who you are, a vehicle of hate. It defines you. That's all OT stuff. The message of Jesus is love. You just use religion as an excuse for spreading hate. You should have stopped after the third word: "God loves everyone."--Percy

The Bible says you're wrong. See my Message 1191 about Revelation 16:14. No science has ever uncovered a violation of the laws of physics. No miracles so far. Besides, you don't believe miracles occur anymore. Very true. I don't think it takes any giant intellect to understand what a violation of the laws of physics means.--Percy

And you know this how?In other words, how do you know apparitions are not miracles, especially given that apparitions aren't even mentioned in your Bible? What even makes you think there's any such thing as an apparition? Have you considered the possibility, given your hate-filled theology, that perhaps you're one of those deceived human beings lured away from God? Could you provide the Biblical citation that says "bleeding or crying statues are not God's work" but can only stem from "demonic manipulations"? You just get crazier and crazier. Again, no apparitions mentioned in the Bible. No statements about whether angels or demons can violate physical laws. And no evidence of angels or demons anyway.--Percy

My goodness, more caps. There's been no disagreement on the definition of miracle. You're making stuff up again. Revelation 16:14 is pretty clear: "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles,..." You're the only one who's confused. Nobody's been arguing for a different definition of miracle. You don't quote anything, so I can't guess where your misimpression is coming from. I wasn't arguing Jesus was an apparition, and once again you quote nothing, so I can't guess where your misimpression is coming from. Well, yes, it does get pretty tedious, and you are the villain. No quoting of what you're replying to, constantly resorting to all caps, baseless assertions, contradictions, confusions, it goes on and on. Oh, I can't believe it, you're doing it again, declaring that you're abandoning discussion. You little liar you.Everything you say above is invented out of your own imagination and has nothing to do with anything I actually said, which you apparently had no intention of replying to, so no wonder you didn't quote anything. The main points again:

• You've had only a single supernatural experience, yet claim to know how easy it is to recognize the supernatural when you see it. You're obviously blowing smoke.
  ​
• The miracle of Jesus' being resurrected was not recognized by either Mary Magdalene or the two disciples. They didn't even recognize him as Jesus. So much for it being easy to recognize a miracle.
  ​
• The supernatural cannot be part of the natural. You can't redefine the English language.
  ​
• About only God being able to perform miracles, Revelation 16:14 says, "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles,..." Billy Graham taught that angels could do miracles: "Much of what they [angels] do could be labeled as miracles." (Does God still do miracles) Bible Hub says, "It would seem that the angels can work miracles." (Whether Angels Can Work Miracles?)

--PercyEdited by Percy, : Clarify poorly written paragraph that appears just before the list section.

What happens a lot is that you disparage those you disagree with. The one showing all the signs of seduction by Satan is you. Of course, not to worry, he's fictional. No kidding! Gee, how is it that everyone but you can see a clear difference between the God of the Old and New Testaments? Glad you're finally on board. When will we be able to tell that you've started following a God of love? For example, tell us of your love for the LGBT folks, and of those obtaining abortions, and of those who follow Islam. What happened to the God of love?--Percy

You once again quote nothing, so I have no idea what you're replying to or what you're on about. Nope, sorry, I haven't been pretending or implying and certainly not saying any such thing. The question is about why you keep claiming to know things you couldn't possibly know, namely how to recognize the supernatural from the natural. The supernatural doesn't even exist, yet you claim to know it when you see it. Apparitions don't even exist in the Bible, let alone the real world. I think you've lost your bearings in the discussion. Well I guess you're not feeling the effects of that God of love yet.--Percy

I've been asking the same question. Faith claims that the supernatural is actually just part of the natural world, but after that it gets very confusing. I haven't received any answers I can make sense of.--Percy

Faith, people stopped believing your claims of offense long ago. If you have answers to the issues I raised then you should be responding to them in this thread. If you have moderation complaints then you should take them to the Report Discussion Problems Here 4.0 thread.Percy

That’s just a restatement of your opinion, not a meaningful response. All caps, one line responses, castigations, threats to end discussion and then still discussing, all the typical signs of an impending Faith implosion.Come on, Faith, discuss in good faith, you can do it.Percy

Really? Actually, you haven't made any attempt to at all "to explain the distinctions" on the issues I raised. You instead did what you always do when someone raises issues you can't answer, accuse them of insulting you as an excuse for not answering the issues you couldn't answer anyway. Nothing I said could be construed as an insult. It's not an insult to echo your own statements back to you.Just so the issues you're ignoring don't get forgotten, here's a list:

• It's only speaking truth, not an insult, to say that you only have messages of hate for LGBT folks, those who obtain abortions, and followers of Islam (this is the short list).
  ​
• Speaking of insults, I did find one recent one, but it came from you in your Message 1199:
  ​
  Faith in Message 1199 writes:

  ​

  Either that or you aren't very bright.
  ​
  Ah, I can just feel the love!
  ​
• You never resolved this contradiction:
  ​
  Faith writes:

  ​

  God is a God of love, period.
  ...
  And Jesus came the first time to save, but He's coming again for vengeance on God's enemies.
  ​
  So will the real God please stand up? Is he a God of love or vengeance? Which is it?
  ​
• Where is this evidence of apparitions that you keep talking about? There's no evidence of them in the real world, and not a single mention in the Bible. I think you've been reading too many ghost stories.
  ​
• Also about apparitions, how did your one supposed witnessing of an apparition turn you into an expert in recognizing the supernatural?
  ​
• Speaking of the supernatural, how can the supernatural be part of the natural? A superset cannot be part of the set it contains.
  ​
• Given that:
  ​
  • Revelation 16:14 says, "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles,..."
  • Billy Graham taught that angels could do miracles: "Much of what they [angels] do could be labeled as miracles." (Does God still do miracles)
  • Bible Hub says, "It would seem that the angels can work miracles." (Whether Angels Can Work Miracles?)
  ​
  Therefore according to the Bible angels can perform miracles. Not that there's any such thing as miracles, but the Bible contradicts your claim that only God can perform miracles.
  ​
• How do you know miracles no longer occur?
  ​
• How do you know God created angels (and demons, too, I presume). Can we get the Bible citation on that?
  ​
• From your Message 1197:
  ​
  Faith in Message 1197 writes:

  ​

  Cuz so many get seduced by Satan the liar.
  ​
  How do you know you're not one of the people seduced by Satan?
  ​
• How do you know that the miracles described at Religion's Top 10 Astonishing Miracles are not really miracles?

Looking forward to finally having answers to all these issues.--Percy