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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1336 of 1540 (825694)
12-17-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1335 by Percy
12-17-2017 8:30 AM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
Mr. Phillips can freely exercise his religious beliefs in his church or his home or the homes of fellow travelers. What he can't do is use his business to discriminate against members of the public.
Not according to God, Percy, or Christians. Secular law may say so but we obey God, not secular law, if secular law has put us in the position of having to choose.
The Law of God applies to everyone everywhere at every moment, in every activity and every undertaking and every business.
It is obviously untrue that the "Law of God" applies to "every undertaking and every business." The laws of the United States maintain separation between church and state. Church isn't allowed to impose its laws on state.
That is an absurd misreading of separation. Christianity is also in favor of separation. The First Amendment includes this phrase: "Congress shall make no law ...prohibiting the free exercise [of religion"] which means that we are free to live our beliefs wherever we are without government interference, as God tells us to, and your misreading would prohibit us from that. This is not "imposing" anything on the state, this is merely the freedom that the Constitution guarantees us. I understand, however, that hostile forces have been rewriting the Constitution for a long time and twisted it into something to suit themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1335 by Percy, posted 12-17-2017 8:30 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1353 by Percy, posted 12-17-2017 2:44 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1337 of 1540 (825696)
12-17-2017 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1333 by PaulK
12-17-2017 12:49 AM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
We can certainly make it plain that you have no claim to be really Christian.
I suppose you can, since anything can be twisted to mean anything these days. As scripture says, the Antichrist will be welcomed by all while true Christianity is rejected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1333 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 12:49 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1338 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 12:25 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1338 of 1540 (825700)
12-17-2017 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1337 by Faith
12-17-2017 12:09 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
If you are Christian then tell us why you are lying in the name of denying the secular benefits of marriage to gay couples.
We know perfectly well that is the real issue here, since Christians have been seeking to deny those benefits when they came with civil unions or simply by the gift of employers. And really those benefits are all that gay marriage provides anyway. It just gives them all neatly and simply in one package.
And how do you react to the Christian couples who threatened to divorce if gay marriage were permitted ? Isn’t that an unquestionable breach of God’s Law?
But when I ask you how the secular benefits are against God’s Law - there is no answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1337 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 12:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1339 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 12:41 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1339 of 1540 (825702)
12-17-2017 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1338 by PaulK
12-17-2017 12:25 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
If you are Christian then tell us why you are lying in the name of denying the secular benefits of marriage to gay couples.
We know perfectly well that is the real issue here, since Christians have been seeking to deny those benefits when they came with civil unions or simply by the gift of employers. And really those benefits are all that gay marriage provides anyway. It just gives them all neatly and simply in one package.
I am not lying. I don't know all the arguments everybody has made. What I object to is specifically the concept of marriage being applied to gay couples. I'd be for some kind of legal contract that provided the benefits without the shadow of marriage being involved in it, especially the right to hospital visitation.
And how do you react to the Christian couples who threatened to divorce if gay marriage were permitted ? Isn’t that an unquestionable breach of God’s Law?
Never heard of that, can't say much without knowing their thinking, but gay marriage is just the latest in the social program to destroy marriage, and their action would just add to the destruction.
But when I ask you how the secular benefits are against God’s Law - there is no answer.
I probably didn't see that question because your posts are so obnoxious I sometimes skip them. I have no problem with people making legal contracts between them which include some form of commitment to each other. I don't know much about the legal situation but I'd think such things as putting someone on your insurance and legally granting the right to visit in the hospital should be possible. There's no reason why gays SHOULD get all the benefits of marriage though since those benefits were given to encourage marriage and children for the sake of society.
ABE: And that being the case I might end up against extending insurance to a gay partner. Some conditions would have to be met in any case, because gay marriage does NOT benefit society which was the whole point of the marriage benefits.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1338 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 12:25 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1340 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 12:57 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1348 by Paboss, posted 12-17-2017 1:55 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1355 by dwise1, posted 12-17-2017 2:57 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1340 of 1540 (825705)
12-17-2017 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1339 by Faith
12-17-2017 12:41 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
quote:
I am not lying. I don't know all the arguments everybody has made. What I object to is specifically the concept of marriage being applied to gay couples. I'd be for some kind of legal contract that provided the benefits without the shadow of marriage being involved in it.
Your fellow Christians clearly do object - and it is quite likely that the people you are defending would also object. And really the modern concept of marriage is different enough from the version found in Genesis - and the fact that it is a wholly secular issue - that it isn’t really clear why you object.
quote:
Never heard of that, can't say much without knowing their thinking, but gay marriage is just the latest in the social program to destroy marriage, and their action would just add to the destruction.
Of course it isn’t a program to destroy marriage, it is simply extending the legal and civil benefits of marriage to gay couples. And you don’t object to that.
quote:
I probably didn't see that question because your posts are so obnoxious I sometimes skip them. I have no problem with people making legal contracts between them which include some form of commitment to each other. I don't know much about the legal situation but I'd think such things as putting someone on your insurance and legally granting the right to visit in the hospital should be possible. There's no reason why gays SHOULD get all the benefits of marriage though since those benefits were given to encourage marriage and children for the sake of society.
Gays can and do have children by various means - and I include adoption - that heterosexual couples with fertility problems also use. Also, the benefits of marriage are extended to infertile couples - including those where the woman is past child-bearing age when she marries. So that is not a valid objection at all. If the benefits are to encourage marriage and children does it make sense to deny the benefits to a gay couple bringing up children but grant them to a childless and infertile couple who happen to be straight ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1339 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 12:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1341 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 1:02 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 1342 by jar, posted 12-17-2017 1:03 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1341 of 1540 (825706)
12-17-2017 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1340 by PaulK
12-17-2017 12:57 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
I'm against gay couples adopting except in some circumstances such as being a relative of the child. There is nothing beneficial to society about children being raised by gays except when all the other options are worse. Uncles and aunts raise children when necessary and that's the model I'd have in mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1340 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 12:57 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1343 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 1:25 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1342 of 1540 (825707)
12-17-2017 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1340 by PaulK
12-17-2017 12:57 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
It is also possible, albeit unlikely perhaps, that gay couples might benefit society by teaching and educating and maintaining homes and partaking in politics and serving on school boards and paying taxes and shopping in stores and ...

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1340 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 12:57 PM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1343 of 1540 (825713)
12-17-2017 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1341 by Faith
12-17-2017 1:02 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
quote:
I'm against gay couples adopting except in some circumstances such as being a relative of the child
Well, of course you do. But does that mean that gays who have adopted children should be denied the secular benefits of marriage - even in the cases where they are relatives ? And how about gays raising children from previous, heterosexual relations?
quote:
There is nothing beneficial to society about children being raised by gays except when all the other options are worse.
I don’t see that gays are automatically worse than any other adoptive parents. And if the vetting processes aren’t good enough to determine that the adoption is in the best need of the child, then they aren’t good enough full stop. There’s no need to single out gays.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1341 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 1:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1344 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 1:27 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1344 of 1540 (825715)
12-17-2017 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1343 by PaulK
12-17-2017 1:25 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
It's the pretense to be a family equivalent to marriage that would make them bad parents. Crazy-making for the children.
Foster parents get financial help so that model could apply where the adoption is already in place.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1343 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 1:25 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1345 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 1:30 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1346 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 1:47 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1357 by dwise1, posted 12-17-2017 3:07 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1372 by Percy, posted 12-18-2017 9:36 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1345 of 1540 (825717)
12-17-2017 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1344 by Faith
12-17-2017 1:27 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
quote:
It's the pretense to be a family equivalent to marriage that would make them bad parents. Crazy-making for the children.
What pretence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1344 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 1:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1346 of 1540 (825724)
12-17-2017 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1344 by Faith
12-17-2017 1:27 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
Faith writes:
It's the pretense to be a family equivalent to marriage that would make them bad parents.
What interaction of naughty bits is it that defines a "family"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1344 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 1:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1347 of 1540 (825726)
12-17-2017 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1316 by Faith
12-16-2017 6:22 PM


Re: definitions and semantics, supernatural, miracle etc.
Faith writes:
I'm grateful, however, that I have the faith that God will judge you for it.
Thank you for that expression of your Christian faith. Someday you'll have to explain how calling attention to hateful things you say are personal attacks.
You still didn't address any of the unanswered questions, here's the whole list again:
  • Question: How can a God of love wreak vengeance on people?
  • Answered question: You have no evidence of apparitions, nor any citations to provide a Biblical foundation for their existence.
  • Answered question: You don't know how to tell the supernatural (which you say is actually just part of the natural) from the natural.
  • Question:How can the supernatural be part of the natural, since a superset cannot reside within the set it contains?
  • Answered question: You don't know that angels and demons cannot perform miracles.
  • Question: How do you know you're not one of the people seduced by Satan?
  • Question: How do you know that the miracles described at Religion's Top 10 Astonishing Miracles are not really miracles?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1316 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 6:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1352 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 2:42 PM Percy has replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1765 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


(1)
Message 1348 of 1540 (825728)
12-17-2017 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1339 by Faith
12-17-2017 12:41 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
Faith,
Didn’t Jesus say to give to Caesar what belongs to Him? I’m sure the Pharisees of the time would have been offended to pay tribute to the Caesar just as much as your Christian baker would be offended to bake a cake for a gay couple. But if civil laws stipulate that business must serve all customers equally, shouldn’t your Christian baker follow Jesus’s prompt and give to Caesar what belongs to him?
I could think of a few benefits of gay marriages to society at large. We are in a position where we don’t need to reproduce at the rate of biblical times but rather birth control would be desirable. Gay couples can adopt and raise children where otherwise they’d be left on their own. And finally, gays being sexually suppressed only makes their lives misserable. People not allowed by society to satisfy their needs and pursue their happiness will be less encouraged to make a positive contribution to society.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1339 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 12:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1349 of 1540 (825731)
12-17-2017 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1318 by Faith
12-16-2017 6:44 PM


Re: definitions and semantics, supernatural, miracle etc.
Faith writes:
The cake would have to have been custom made. I don't see a problem with a cake off the shelf and from what he said Phillips wouldn't either since he said anything else in the shop was available.
If Phillips refuses to sell to some what he would sell to others, that's discrimination.
There is no Christian justification for denying black people or any racial group anything and it's wrong wherever it's been done. The Bible says we are all descended from Adam and Eve. Racism is unchristian.
But the old South used the Bible to justify slavery. Christian interpretations are impermanent.
But marrying two people who are not designed for marriage, which was ordained by God for uniting the two sexes for the purpose of procreation, is against God's Law and must be refused by Christians.
That's a religious belief. It has no place in the secular environment of a bakery.
--Pery

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1318 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 6:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1351 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 2:26 PM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1350 of 1540 (825736)
12-17-2017 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1314 by Faith
12-16-2017 6:01 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
Faith writes:
The Law of God applies to everyone everywhere at every moment, in every activity and every undertaking and every business.
So does the mercy of God and the forgiveness of God. You seem to emphasize God's judgment more than His mercy. How do you know that the things you spend so much energy defending and denying may be the things He wants you to let go of?
As a representative of the Living God, how is what you market helping anyone?
People may conclude that your God is too judgmental and not One worth knowing...nevermind following.You have tried to show them your argument without elaborating on why God as you know Him is so wonderful.
I'm not saying that I have any better answers at this point...but God surely has a plan for everyone and not just for those who use His written authority as their justification for concluding an argument rather than suspending their belief long enough to examine their own Faith. You claim that you used to do this...why did you stop?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1314 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 6:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1361 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 3:26 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 1365 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 4:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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