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Member (Idle past 1723 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Elections are won in the primaries | |||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Curious how people are telling me what I mean, especially when it isn't true. You've already admitted to tolerating stuff I find intolerable. Your progressives aren't all that progressive. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 325 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
RAZD responds to me:
quote: And you honestly believe that a Republican is going to vote for a Democrat for Speaker of the House? Exactly how does a Republican being elected to the Senate result in a Democrat becoming the leader of the Senate? That isn't how the rules work. Whichever party has the majority automatically gains leadership. It doesn't matter how "good" you think your Republican is, their mere existence in the Senate guarantees that Mitch McConnell remains in control and thus, no liberal bill of any kind will ever make it to the floor.
quote: BWAHAHAHA! How? By immediately defecting as soon as they're sworn in? Because given the way the rules work, that's the only way it'll happen. If the Republican decides to vote for the Democrat for Speaker, they will never get any committee assignments and thus, they will have absolutely zero influence in Congress. They won't be able to manage bills in committee and their amendments will get no co-sponsors from the majority and thus will never get put into play. And again, there is absolutely no way the Republican can change the leadership of the Senate because the rules state that their mere existence results in the Republicans having the leadership if they are in the majority. That is the way our system of government works: Winner takes all. To vote for one is to quite literally vote for *ALL* of them. There is no such thing as a "good" Republican. If they were that good, they wouldn't be a Republican. Their mere existence as a Republican necessarily gives power to all the rest. Cleaning up the Republican Party isn't going to happen by tricking them into voting for a progressive. You need to convince Republicans that their current candidates do not have their best interests at heart and that Democrats do. Once the Republicans have been neutralized, you can continue your work on improving the Democratic Party. The unreliable friend is to be chosen over the guaranteed enemy.
quote: Working to end voter suppression, working to end gerrymandering, working to expand Democratic exposure, and doing the hard work of getting Democrats into power at the lower levels so that they are in a better position to be electable candidates at the higher levels. Beyond Dean's 50 State Strategy, we need to pay attention to every race at every level. Fake candidates do not help this. Any attempt at advancing a "liberal" agenda by a Republican will immediately be pounced upon by the "real" Republican, the voters will go along with it, and you'll end up with not just a Republican, but a Republican that will make Teabagging Republicans look like Bernie Sanders. After all, Roy Moore won his primary. You didn't think you could just snap your fingers and make it happen, did you? We've seen this attempt at splitting the middle before and it never works. Why is this time going to be any different?Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1723 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
RAZD, they won't ever get elected in the R primaries. The talk radios will kill them before arrival. You're counting on no brains from the R side. So the answer is to curl up on your couch and wish republicans would all die? Or do you try to do something about it, try to change the dialogue. Talk radio will only talk to the radio heads, not the general public, the people who are tired of congress (low approval rating) and want some progress. What is your solution or do you just give up. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1723 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
And you honestly believe that a Republican is going to vote for a Democrat for Speaker of the House? Exactly how does a Republican being elected to the Senate result in a Democrat becoming the leader of the Senate? That isn't how the rules work. Whichever party has the majority automatically gains leadership. ... By doing it in enough districts that the democrats get a majority.
Cleaning up the Republican Party isn't going to happen by tricking them into voting for a progressive. ... Still not the plan. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1723 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
You've already admitted to tolerating stuff I find intolerable. Your progressives aren't all that progressive. Again you are blinding yourself, the plan is to elect someone not-a-republican in the republican primary. I would call that person a progressive republican for the purpose of the primary. Once you have that then, either that person wins the general or a democrat wins the general. In either case you then have not-a-republican in the house. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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ringo Member (Idle past 730 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
RAZD writes:
The answer is to vote against Republicans.
So the answer is to curl up on your couch and wish republicans would all die?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1723 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The answer is to vote against Republicans. In the republican primary for a progressive candidate running against the republicans in the primary where the district is gerrymandered to essentially guarantee the republican candidate picked in the primary will win the general election. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 325 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
RAZD responds to me:
quote:quote:By doing it in enough districts that the democrats get a majority. You do realize that that is literally the opposite of your strategy, right? You are advocating putting a "progressive" *Republican* candidate in the primary. When that candidate wins (which will never happen because the "real" Republicans will immediately call them out as "liberal" and will get absolutely no assistance from the Republican Party), their mere existence will prevent the Democrats from gaining control of the Senate. So I ask you again: How does a Republican being elected to the Senate result in a Democrat becoming the leader of the Senate?
quote:quote:Still not the plan. You can "plan" for 2 + 2 to equal 5, but that doesn't actually happen. Your whining about how "that isn't the plan!" doesn't change the actual results of your suggestion. But that said, that is *precisely* what your plan is. You said so yourself, or have you forgotten your own argument out of some absurd need to be contrary given that you've been shown how it falls apart upon contact with reality?
Message 51 Agreed, and that is why we need to encourage more variety within the GOP primaries to get alternative ideas into the mix. Now, do please explain how "we need to encourage more variety within the GOP primaries to get alternative ideas into the mix" is not merely another way of saying, "Cleaning up the Republican Party"? For crying out loud, RAZD, your *original post* said exactly the same thing:
The way the gerrymandering has taken over the elections for representatives and senators -- with the tacit compliance of both parties -- it has now reached the point, imho, that the elections are won in the primaries. Progressives are not going to change the democratic party from the inside. Third party challenges rarely result in victory. Time to run alternative candidates in republican primaries ... Fiscally conservativeWorking family centered How is that not merely another way of saying, "Cleaning up the Republican Party"? Exactly what is the point of these "alternative" candidates if not to change the Republican Party? Ignoring the cognitive dissonance involved in your different analysis of Republicans and Democrats (if you can't "change the Democratic Party from the inside," exactly how do you plan on doing that with the Republicans? And if you can with the R, what makes you think you can't with the D?) you are being deliberately obtuse. When you said that your plan was specifically to change the Republican Party, we believed you. For you now to whine that that isn't the plan means you repeated direct statements that isn't "the plan" means you weren't being exactly honest at some point.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 325 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
RAZD writes:
quote: ...lose in the primary and should there be a miracle and said Republican wins, said Republican will sell out all those "progressive" principles quite literally on the first day when in the House, they vote for the Republican Speaker of the House and in the Senate, their mere existence ensures Republicans maintain control. And by ensuring that Republicans retain control of Congress, no progressive legislation will ever see the light of day. Should they betray the Republican principles that the rest of the Party advocates, they ensure that they will get no committee assignments, no support from the Party for election, and will have absolutely no influence in the very body that they were elected to "introduce new ideas" into. A fake Republican is still a Republican.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1723 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
wrong again.
Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1723 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
and still wrong.
This is getting entertaining, seeing how wrong you can be over a very simple concept. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I would call that person a progressive republican for the purpose of the primary. I would never call that person you describe a progressive. The Republican party is all about not being progressive. Their platform is anything but progressive. You seem to think that being moderate on a few issues, issues which nearly every Democrat is on board with, means somebody worth my time. My situation is this. I live in a district where the Republicans cannot win. I don't get to vote in a Republican-stacked district because I don't live there. My current Congressman is good but not perfect, but I don't want him replaced by any Republican. Our two senators, on the other hand, are a piece of work. However, that is not for a lack of opposition. Their opponents were worthy folks who could have been elected if Democrats bothered to vote But in those stacked districts, the Republicans compete on who can be the most unliberal. People are actually voting against universal health care and expanding the minimum wage even though they are as poor as dirt. Your strategy is to try to sneak a "progressive" by folks who apparently consider real liberals "commies."
Again you are blinding yourself, Or perhaps, you've gotten used to your own off-key singing. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1723 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Still
Not Getting It But in those stacked districts, the Republicans compete on who can be the most unliberal. People are actually voting against universal health care and expanding the minimum wage even though they are as poor as dirt. Your strategy is to try to sneak a "progressive" by folks who apparently consider real liberals "commies." My strategy is to get the liberal progressive voters in those districts to register as republicans to vote for a liberal progressive candidate in the republican primary. With one liberal progressive candidate against a field of republicans that split the republican votes, the liberal progressive could win the primary. So simple. It makes gerrymandering work against them instead of for them. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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ringo Member (Idle past 730 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
RAZD writes:
Is there a main clause in that "sentence"?
In the republican primary for a progressive candidate running against the republicans in the primary where the district is gerrymandered to essentially guarantee the republican candidate picked in the primary will win the general election.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 325 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
RAZD responds to me:
quote: Says who? You? Why should we believe you? You've already shown amazing cognitive dissonance regarding this topic. What makes you think you are reliable now? After all, your opening post contradicts you, RAZD. Have you changed your mind? See, here's where you would attempt to rephrase your argument so that it wouldn't be misunderstood. That you're running away instead would seem to indicate that no, we're not wrong, you just can't defend your argument. You're sure it's right but can't explain why. Thus, the cognitive dissonance that you're so fond of accusing everybody else of. Let me help you: What is the point of running a "progressive" Republican in the primary in districts that are gerrymandered such that only a Republican can win? Key points you must address:
Remember, you said, and I quote:
that is why we need to encourage more variety within the GOP primaries to get alternative ideas into the mix. So if that is not merely another way of saying, "Cleaning up the Republican Party," then what on earth does it mean? Exactly what is the point of running a "progressive" Republican? Be specific. Edited by Rrhain, : Fixing comma splice. Edited by Rrhain, : But apparently introducing another one.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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