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Author Topic:   The Sudden Dawn of the Cosmos and the Constancy of Physical Laws
AZPaul3
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Posts: 6082
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 42 of 244 (888146)
09-06-2021 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Christian7
09-06-2021 11:39 AM


Re: Actual Big Bang Theory
The universe does behave in a very specific way, at least at the quantum level, and this must be consistent seeing our universe behaves in a consistent manner from the micro-level all the way to the macro-level.

In actuality matter and forces at the quantum level can behave quite differently from what classical physics would predict.

Two apples separated from their basket are not entangled. Two photons may very well be.

For us humans today the physics of the micro and of the macro are described in separate magisteria. We do not know, yet, how to combine them.

Therefore, it must have been made by a faithful God, one who upheld it for thousands of years.

You sure it wasn't an unfaithful, cruel, bloodthirsty, ogre of a god? How about a rainbow unicorn god? How about no god at all?

And you are trying to say in a round-about way that order equals god. That is an ignorant view of this world. We know otherwise.

For if the universe had formed from nothing, having nothing to cause it, there is nothing to prevent it from vanishing without a cause.

If this were all true as you present it then maybe, but it isn't.

No one can say "the universe had formed from nothing" or "had nothing to cause it". We are too ignorant of this beginning to say anything at all about it.

So, no Preacher, your views are neither factual nor logically consistent.

For if the universe had formed from nothing, having nothing to cause it, there is nothing to prevent it from vanishing without a cause.

Ignorant speculation. Really not worth the effort to contemplate.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Christian7, posted 09-06-2021 11:39 AM Christian7 has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6082
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 44 of 244 (888163)
09-07-2021 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ringo
09-07-2021 11:59 AM


Re: Actual Big Bang Theory
Gospel Preacher writes:

Therefore, it must have been made by a faithful God, one who upheld it for thousands of years.

Not even a few yactoseconds.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 09-07-2021 11:59 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6082
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


(3)
Message 47 of 244 (888347)
09-15-2021 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Christian7
09-15-2021 8:04 AM


Re: Actual Big Bang Theory
If Eleanor Roosevelt had wings, if the White House was built like the Arc de Triomphe, if Jimmy Carter had not been re-elected to a second term, then god is now dancing on an eternal rainbow with his legions of gay lovers many of which are trying to preach the gospels.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6082
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 52 of 244 (888353)
09-15-2021 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by DrJones*
09-15-2021 8:25 PM


Re: Actual Big Bang Theory
...let me know the next time someone prays themselves into orbit.

Wouldn’t that go for all of us, though? If religios could pray themselves into space then maybe WE could pray THEM into space too?

Imagine massive prayer vigils held by atheists in every stadium around the world sending hundreds of millions of the religiously loony into space every day! It would be glorious! The Rapture come true! The cleansing rapture of ALL the religiously encumbered, handicapped, nutzoid would arrive just as the ancients promised! Halleluiah!

Baah, I guess that’s not allowed. Mother nature does have her rules.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6082
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 56 of 244 (888357)
09-15-2021 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Christian7
09-15-2021 9:09 PM


Re: Paul Steinhardt on Dark Energy.
If the universe, with all its laws, had a beginning without a cause, then at any time those laws can be breached with no cause.

But you don't know. Nobody does.

If you can speculate a beginning then I can speculate that physics will not be breached in any way you so desperately seem to need for your argument.

You can sillyjism any speculations you so desire into any gods you want. And I can do the same to get rid of them.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Christian7, posted 09-15-2021 9:09 PM Christian7 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Christian7, posted 09-15-2021 11:03 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6082
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 58 of 244 (888359)
09-16-2021 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Christian7
09-15-2021 11:03 PM


Re: Paul Steinhardt on Dark Energy.
If the universe had a beginning, it had a cause, but this cause is not subject to the laws of nature, for the laws of nature are bound to the place of this universe.

Says who?

I know of nothing that restricts our physics to only our side of creation. Just ask Kip Thorne about the physics of wormholes that transcend our universe.

And even in a multiverse the speculation is that a universe COULD (note: not would) have different physics. There is nothing in these scenarios keeping the physics we all know and love from being propagated across other universes.

Therefore whatever caused the cosmos, might also cause its destruction ...

... or not. In my speculative fantasy it can't. My speculative physics doesn't work that way. You're such a pessimist.

For the cause of the universe is unobservable, and therefore unpredictable.

That's right. Nobody knows, which means your conclusions, based on your observations of nothing but speculative (and faulty) what-ifs, are not supported and are not allowed.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6082
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 101 of 244 (888405)
09-17-2021 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Christian7
09-17-2021 7:50 PM


Re: Bad Philosophy
I formed these syllogisms.

No, you didn't. You threw a bunch of crap at the wall to see if any of it would stick. Nothing did.

A: Every non-miraculous occurrence in the universe makes sense according to meaning and logic.

Even this fixed version is not quite right. Parts of QFT don't make any sense at all by any math, logic, meaning. Why do you think there are so many different interpretations from Copenhagen.

B: This would not be true if there were no minds to observe them.

What BS. Minds are not required. They are the key to our understanding but our understanding is not necessary for the universe to exist. It was here before us. It will be here after us.

At this point your two therefores in the first sillyjism are dead.

A: If the universe did something other than according to meaning and logic, it would not make sense according to meaning and logic.

Paraphrase Neil deGrasse Tyson, this universe is under no obligation to make sense to you or anyone else.

Remember both your meaning and your logic are human constructs. This universe has already defied our logic on numerous occasions for millennia. That is probably not going to change.

Since the universe does not make sense, and does not need to make sense to us mere mortals, then the universe is not required to comply with your sense of meaning or logic at all.

C: Therefore, if no minds existed, the universe would(n't) be violating the laws of meaning and logic care one whit.

There, fixed this one, too.

What our present reality is telling us is that no minds, not yours, mine or your non-existent spook, are required for this universe to exist.

Again, C7(77), your logic is piss poor and your facts aren't even close to anything substantive. Your sillygisms are not valid.

You do realize, C7(77), that none of your fantasy musings in this threat hold any effect on anything. The only things we know exist are those things physics shows us. All else is unknown, conjecture, speculation, superstition. And you cannot show otherwise.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 7:50 PM Christian7 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 9:21 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 103 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 9:26 PM AZPaul3 has responded
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6082
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 106 of 244 (888410)
09-17-2021 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Christian7
09-17-2021 9:21 PM


Re: Bad Philosophy
You have only denied my premises.

And that destroys your sillyjisms.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 9:21 PM Christian7 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 9:52 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 244 by Larni, posted 10-03-2021 5:54 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6082
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 107 of 244 (888411)
09-17-2021 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Christian7
09-17-2021 9:26 PM


Re: Bad Philosophy
You're just quoting information from somewhere else and saying that whatever conclusion I came to is wrong because some other source contradicts it.

Ahh, well, yeah. That is the way reality works. I quote our science and when it says you're wrong then you are wrong.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 9:26 PM Christian7 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 9:54 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6082
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 110 of 244 (888414)
09-17-2021 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Christian7
09-17-2021 9:54 PM


Re: Bad Philosophy
Then science is not self-correcting. For if science were self-correcting, then where it says I am wrong, I could be right. Otherwise science cannot ever be wrong. Therefore it cannot be self-correcting.

What a twisted dumbfuck of an argument.

Science is not religion. We don't ascribe to stone age concepts disproven long ago.

And when it comes to your specific brand of bullshit, when the science says you are wrong, it means, C7(77), that you, personally, are wrong. No corrections required.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 9:54 PM Christian7 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 10:18 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6082
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 112 of 244 (888416)
09-17-2021 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Christian7
09-17-2021 9:52 PM


Re: Bad Philosophy
Your sillyjisms are bullshit. They were wrong from inception.

That appears to be a major problem with you. You're so in love with your sense of logic that you can't see the flaws embedded.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 9:52 PM Christian7 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 10:30 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6082
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 115 of 244 (888420)
09-17-2021 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Christian7
09-17-2021 10:18 PM


Re: Bad Philosophy
Just be cause science doesn't know everything does not mean we know nothing.

Most things we know very very well, indeed, and in those things, like known evidenced physics, you cannot challenge it with religious bullshit.

Use:
[qs]...[/qs]
or use
[quote]...[/quote]

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 10:18 PM Christian7 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 10:56 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 120 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 11:02 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6082
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 119 of 244 (888424)
09-17-2021 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Christian7
09-17-2021 10:30 PM


Re: Bad Philosophy
Your arguments were refuted hundreds of years ago.

We have no need to re-examine your failed religious tracts. It is a waste of electrons.

It's like trying to argue vaccines with a trumpette.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 10:30 PM Christian7 has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6082
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 121 of 244 (888426)
09-17-2021 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Christian7
09-17-2021 10:56 PM


Re: Bad Philosophy
But there is no certainty is science...

There is no certainty in the universe. No certainty in life. Big revelation.

therefore nothing is proven

Nothing ever is proven. Not your god your jesus your flud not your genesis.

What we have is a very high degree of confidence in the efficacy of our models, many of which have never, ever, failed unlike your god your jesus your flud your genesis. And it doesn't matter who you are, when the science says you are wrong then you are wrong. Ask Fred Hoyle.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6082
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 122 of 244 (888427)
09-17-2021 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Christian7
09-17-2021 11:02 PM


Re: Bad Philosophy
What I'm trying to say is this: We know that certain things are true about the universe, not because we have evidence, but because what we believe is true.

Stop right there.

The ONLY things we can say about this universe are those things evidenced. There is nothing else.

Anything else is a charlatan's game.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 11:02 PM Christian7 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Christian7, posted 09-17-2021 11:37 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
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