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Author | Topic: The Sudden Dawn of the Cosmos and the Constancy of Physical Laws | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Christian7 Member (Idle past 499 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
According to the Big Bang Theory, the universe, having never before existed, suddenly appeared at the time of the Big Bang, when something exploded, and particles spread outward through space, conforming to the Laws of Physics. Now if the Laws of Physics themselves did not exist before the Big Bang, but came into being along with all matter, how can we trust the Laws of Physics to remain constant? For if the Laws of Physics were not always what they are now, there is no reason for us to be confident that they will always be. And therefore, there is no reason to believe that the universe will not suddenly vanish or change into an elephant. But if there is a Creator who established those Laws, then it makes sense that they should be constant. And it is written of Jesus Christ in the Book of Hebrews in the Bible that He is "upholding all things by the word of his power".
Edited by Guido Arbia, : No reason given.
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AdminPhat Inactive Member |
Long time no see, Guido. Where would you like your topic? I'm supposing Faith & Belief but you tell me.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 499 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
Hey. I wish there was a category that could cover both. But I guess the topic should go wherever is most appropriate.
Edited by Guido Arbia, : No reason given. Edited by Guido Arbia, : No reason given.
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AdminPhat Inactive Member
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Thread copied here from the The Sudden Dawn of the Cosmos and the Constancy of Physical Laws thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
Try and stick with the logic presented. Lets all learn something here, Guido. Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
This is an honest question that has several scientific explanations and fewer sound theological ones, though many theologians simply dont worry about such things. They may say something along the lines of "God surely must have created all of the laws of physics" or something like that. I did a google search and found some interesting responses.
quote: Did the laws of physics apply before the big bang? - QuoraThese guys speculate that the universe may have looked like this early on: If we approach the question as theologians, we can easily say that God works in mysterious ways...but we really have not thought about how He does it. Science seems more creative. Comments? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
Guido writes: Out of curiosity, what have you been reading and studying lately. If I recall, you were only around 17 when you first came to EvC Forum...now you must be around 26-28. What have you been studying and learning the past ten years? Also what do you think about Intelligent Design? Does it appeal to you at all? As for me, I am fascinated by traditional science but I really dont know a whole lot about the method. Hey. I wish there was a category that could cover both. But I guess the topic should go wherever is most appropriate.Guido writes: lol. How do we know that the plan isnt to change up on us and turn the universe into an elephant? After all, be honest. Some have suggested turtles. Turtles All The Way Down For if the Laws of Physics were not always what they are now, there is no reason for us to be confident that they will always be. And therefore, there is no reason to believe that the universe will not suddenly vanish or change into an elephant. But if there is a Creator who established those Laws, then it makes sense that they should be constant. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1656 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Did the laws of physics apply before the big bang?
You had a space after "... -big-bang" before the ] the other link is not a picture (you need to "copy image location") Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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jar Member (Idle past 90 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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The Laws of Physics are simply human creations and of course did not exist before humans created them fairly recently.
Before the Big Bang really is another one of those fun games but doesn't have much validity or use. But it was not an explosion or an object but rather simply the point where our current descriptions break down and stop making sense. There are lots of kids that say "well something can't come from nothing" but the correct answer at this time is "We don't know that." and NOT try to stick some unevidenced favorite fantasy in as an answer. And can laws change? What we can say is that there is direct and conclusive evidence that for at least the last 14 billion years the properties and processes have remained the same even though the laws do change as we learn more and more about reality. Remember the "Laws" are absolutely nothing but human created and verifiable descriptions of what is seen in reality. The Laws do absolutely nothing but allow us to discuss what is seen. AbE: Also, the idea that constancy might result from acts of some God, particularly the God of the Bible is just silly. The Bible is filled with examples of that God changing her mind or behaving irrationally or changing the rules of nature. No reasonable person would ever trust an existence where the properties and performance were at the whim of anyone so unstable. Edited by jar, : see AbE:
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 499 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
quote: The Laws of Physics would have no power to describe nature unless they reflected, either somewhat or fully, Laws existing in nature. Otherwise scientists would not have created them, for there would be nothing upon which to base them.
quote: The word nothing implies that nothing can come from it. For if there is no thing, what is the cause of anything? And if a cause is not needed, why should the universe not suddenly vanish without cause? How can we rely on the scientific method to conclude anything about nature, if cause and effect being unnecessary, nature is not constant.
quote: So far the God of the Bible has a perfect track record of keeping His promises and fulfilling prophecy. Though God does seem to change His mind in response to the actions of men, He changes it according to His word, which tells us the way that He will deal with us. Hebrews says, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and forever."
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jar Member (Idle past 90 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Guido writes: How can we rely on the scientific method to conclude anything about nature, if cause and effect being unnecessary, nature is not constant. Yup, another big YAWN. We can look at past experience as I already pointed out to you and see that for at least 14 billion years the processes have been going on pretty much as they do today.
Guido writes: So far the God of the Bible has a perfect track record of keeping His promises and fulfilling prophecy Bullshit. That is utter nonsense as you well know. We have examined Biblical Prophecy numerous times here at EvC and so far almost none have been supportable.
Guido writes: Hebrews says, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and forever." Which again is one of those loved quote mined lines taken out of context that has absolutely no value or meaning. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin ee in hr
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Guido, if there's one thing the Bible makes absolutely crystal clear, it's that the existence of God does not guarantee the absence of breaches of the laws of nature. On the contrary, the book is full of God making donkeys talk and making the sun stand still in the sky and raising the dead and turning water into wine. (Not to mention the supporting cast of wizards and witches and saints and magi with their various magical powers.)
The Bible teaches us that there is a being who can, and who does violate the laws of nature, and who has motivations so inscrutable as to appear to us merely capricious: a being who can do anything and might. If you want to worry about the universe turning into an elephant, worry about him doing it. Certainly you cannot claim that the existence of an entity who can and does perform miracles would act as a guarantee that miracles will not take place.
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DC85 Member (Idle past 246 days) Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: |
when something exploded It's not really an explosion it's more like time and space suddenly expanding which is still happening.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17909 Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
quote: Which is why the world came to an end in the 2nd Century BC (Daniel). And the 1st Century AD (the Gospels).
quote: Leviticus tells us that God will always do what he says he will do. Jeremiah says that God can and does change his mind.
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Pressie Member (Idle past 226 days) Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
Guido Arbia writes: Nope, the other way round. If there were a Creator or Creators who can and could do anything and everything at a whim, then we would expect the Laws of Nature to change. All the evidence we have show that the way the Universe works has not changed for more than 13 billion years. Therefore no Creator or Creators.
... For if the Laws of Physics were not always what they are now, there is no reason for us to be confident that they will always be. And therefore, there is no reason to believe that the universe will not suddenly vanish or change into an elephant. But if there is a Creator who established those Laws, then it makes sense that they should be constant... |
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1
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jar writes: Dr.Stephen Hawking seemingly challenges your assumptions.
The Laws of Physics are simply human creations and of course did not exist before humans created them fairly recently.Before the Big Bang really is another one of those fun games but doesn't have much validity or use. But it was not an explosion or an object but rather simply the point where our current descriptions break down and stop making sense. Stephen Hawking says universe not created by God Physics, not creator, made Big Bang, new book claims Professor had previously referred to 'mind of God' In the new work, The Grand Design, Professor Stephen Hawking argues that the Big Bang, rather than occurring following the intervention of a divine being, was inevitable due to the law of gravity. (...)"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing," he writes. "Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. Doesnt this imply that the law of gravity existed before humans invented the words to call it a law and the experiments to verify the behavior?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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