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Author Topic:   The irresolvability of the creation/evolution debate
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 16 of 98 (433276)
11-10-2007 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Aven
11-10-2007 6:14 PM


Aven writes:
Science makes a lot of assumptions the only reason why we dont question them is because its been ingrained into our minds as common sense since the time we were born.
You mean that material realities have been ingrained into our minds since the time we were born? The wild assumption that if we bump into something solid, it's there?
Here's one dictionary definition of science: systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
Apart from the working assumption that observable material reality exists, something all people are obliged to assume on a practical day to day basis, what other assumptions does science require? Surely, at this point, you can start observing and experimenting while saying "We know nothing about the universe, other than it appears to exist, let's see if it's possible to find out anything about it."
I think you're bringing in too much high philosophy into the equation.
The EvC debate is a bit like the six year old kid telling his five year old brother that Santa Claus doesn't bring the presents down the chimney, it's Dad who brings them. The six year old has to assume the reality he's observed in the middle of the night is not an illusion, but nothing more. The five year old is living in a fantasy world he desires, and is frightened to leave it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Aven, posted 11-10-2007 6:14 PM Aven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Aven, posted 11-11-2007 12:17 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 27 of 98 (433312)
11-11-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Aven
11-11-2007 12:17 AM


Aven writes:
I don't think so. Yeah, science is cool if we're building a car or something. If we're asking about what the universe was like 6000 years ago, though, I would argue that it would be naive to privilege science or religion as necessarily correct or a more real vs. illusory belief system to use.
There isn't a religious view of origins. There are hundreds, if not thousands. New ones are being invented all the time. Pick out any creation mythology at random, and it would be naive to perceive it as anything other than a naive human invention.
I'm not dismissing out of hand the possibility that the real universe may have come into existence with intent, but creationism is about non-existent universes, universes of the mind.
If your O.P. is suggesting that there will always be creationism, history is not on your side. Few Europeans believed that they descended from other animals a century ago, but a majority now do.
Evolution becomes easier and easier to argue as time goes on. Because it happens and has happened, the evidence inevitably increases as science progresses.
The argument that you mention about the laws of the universe having been different in the past is just a symptom of the beginning of the end. It's "we haven't got any evidence, so we'll aim for neutral".
The trouble is that for such a change to have influenced the history of our species, by definition, there would have to be evidence for it.
If you're saying that many creationists will always be able to convince themselves that their views are true, I agree. But the likelihood of most of their great grand children sharing those beliefs is slim.
For those who need religion, there are religious interpretations that are not and can probably never be incompatible with science. It's only these that can survive in the long term.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Aven, posted 11-11-2007 12:17 AM Aven has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 28 of 98 (433320)
11-11-2007 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Aven
11-11-2007 12:22 AM


Re: the reason we continue in what appears to be a futile endeavour
Agreed - logic can clarify our thought processes and call us to look at our arguments in a new light, which could persuade us. But sometimes there's just no persuading someone and its important to realize that they're not necessarily "wrong".
Does your new found "philosophy" tell you that the flat earth society is not necessarily wrong? If so, it sounds like the kind of philosophy that you could easily put to test by jumping in front of a bus to prove that the view that the bus is not really there has some merit. After all, the view that the bus is there and the view that it isn't ultimately rely on assumptions, as you point out in the O.P.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Aven, posted 11-11-2007 12:22 AM Aven has not replied

  
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