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Author | Topic: Gun Control III | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 20709 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.4
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'There are really no words': 17 dead in Florida high school shooting; former student in custody
There really are no words. Weapon was an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle. We have to make guns like this and the Bushmaster and so forth unavailable to the public. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 20709 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
And apparently the propaganda isn't just from the NRA and gun-nuts. The Russians see the gun issue as yet another avenue for sowing discord here. This is from CNN: Russian bots promote pro-gun messages after Florida school shooting --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 20709 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.4
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The same kids appeared on all three weekly news shows, This Week, Meet the Press, and Face the Nation. The girl in the upper right (the kids kept the same seats on all the shows), Emma Gonzalez, also spoke at the rally (everyone: you want to watch this one - Emma is an inspiring speaker):
Me too. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 20709 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.4
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From Slate Magazine: More Americans Blame Mass Shootings on Mental Health Than on Gun Laws, New Poll Finds
It will always be the extremely rare case that mental health professionals are able to pre-identify mass murderers. Here's a list of mass murderers in the U.S. from Mass Shooting Perpetrators, find me one who could have been pre-identified: Edward Charles Allaway, James Edward Pough, Carl Robert Brown, Omar Mateen, Robert A. Hawkins, James Oliver Huberty, Nathan Dunlap, George Hennard, Dylann Roof, Adam Lanza, Nidal Malik Hasan, Charles Whitman, Jeff Weise, Gang Lu, Patrick Sherrill, Barry Loukaitis, Esteban Santiago, Christopher Harper-Mercer, Gian Luigi Ferri, Mark Essex, Scott Evans Dekraai, Steven Kazmierczak, Jennifer San Marco, James Eagan Holmes, Michael McLendon, Jared Lee Loughner, Seung-Hui Cho, Elliot Rodger, Charles Carl Roberts IV, Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, Robert Lewis Dear, Mitchell Johnson and Andrew Golden, Aaron Alexis, Wade Michael Page, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, Patrick Edward Purdy, Gavin Eugene Long, Micah Xavier Johnson, Kyle Aaron Huff, One L. Goh, Stephen Paddock, and Devin Patrick Kelley As the article says: quote: Missing from the list is the most recent mass murderer, Nicholas Cruz, and it is an interesting question whether local law enforcement would have confiscated his gun had the FBI notified them (FBI field offices don't deal with such issues directly, they merely pass on information to local law enforcement). I very much doubt the gun would have been confiscated. As the family with whom Cruz was staying said, he presented as respectful, quiet and obedient, though sad about his mother's death. Americans belief in the predictive power of psychology is seriously misplaced, as any psychologist will tell you. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 20709 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.4
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In her New York Times Opinion piece, The Mental Health System Can’t Stop Mass Shooters psychiatrist Amy Barnhorst describes the difficulties faced by mental health professionals trying to stop mass murderers. Here she describes a man she evaluated:
quote: In these excerpts she describes the difficulties more generally: quote: Bottom line: Republican claims about beefing up the mental health care system is a smokescreen for doing nothing about guns. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 20709 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
Just to cast further ridicule on this, at age 14 me and a friend were already taking the train from New Jersey into New York City to buy firecrackers for resale. By age 16 I was taking buses with the chess club to tournaments in New York City, Atlantic City, Philadelphia and Baltimore where we found our own hotel arrangements and somehow managed to even eat. By age 17 I was driving all over, including as far south as Virginia. And by normal teenage standards I was by no means adventurous. Wherever does Mr. Kingston come by such colossal naiveté? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 20709 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.4
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We who think gun control is the right response to mass shootings (especially for what are in reality weapons of war) naturally question why that solution is not obvious to everyone. Could be rightist brainwashing, no reason why that's not a possibility. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 20709 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.4
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The attacks on the Douglas High students are reprehensible. From the Washington Post editorial page: The right-wing sliming of Douglas High students can’t be ignored. It’s too disgusting for that. Short excerpts:
quote: --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 20709 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
I think it's disgraceful that each mass shooting is followed by repugnant rightist objections, slanders, conspiracy theories and lies, especially of students who have just witnessed the slaughter of classmates.
There is no right way to convince rightist gun wingnuts that we need gun control.
And when you have rightist nutcases like Donald Jr. liking slanders of traumatized students expressing their opinions and feelings the right has lost all moral authority. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 20709 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
I'm taking back my "Cheer" of that post.
We must begin by addressing the most extreme case, mass murder, even though it represents only a small proportion of all murders. That means eliminating the right of Americans to own weapons of war. Next we must address the gun problem. Owning a gun increases the likelihood that you or your family or friends will be shot or murdered. Gun nuts only advance invented reasons for keeping their guns, such as self defense. If they were truthful they'd just say, "I like guns, don't take my fun away." It wouldn't be a good reason, but it would at least be honest. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 20709 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
"Now is not the right time" has become a blatant rightest tactic to avoid talking about gun control.
This is just BS. It has become deadly obvious that this is just a discussion avoidance strategy.
If the word fits... Being polite to gun nuts who never return the favor but just take advantage has never proven an effective strategy. Prove I'm wrong by condemning those slandering the Parkland students. Oh, wait, you can't do that because you're slandering them yourself. Gun nuts who support the NRA, and of course the NRA itself, are complicit in murder, and politicians who accept their money must own the blood on their hands.
Like what? Likely you're for any ineffective gun control measure. I bet you're in favor of more mental health efforts and against taking away assault weapons.
Why? It is responsible for the US having more gun-related deaths per capita by far than any other nation in the civilized world.
Yes, your wingnuttiness, more guns in schools is the reasonable solution. Let's have shootouts in schools while also increasing the likelihood of gun accidents. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 20709 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
Are you supporting the Israel solution again?
No, the shootings don't always happen in schools. They happen all over (more on that later), and boy you've got a short memory. The Las Vegas concert shooting where 56 were killed and 851 injured was just a few months ago. By "arming teachers in schools" do you include all the requirements and training as in Israel? What if teachers want to teach instead of being turned into armed guards? Who's going to pay for the training and the guns? Who's liable if an armed teacher makes a mistake and shoots the wrong person or mistakes a contraption from metal shop for a gun? Wouldn't it be much easier to just get rid of all weapons that make it very easy to fill the air with high velocity lead? Here's an actual hunting rifle, it fires three shots before reloading:
Here's an AR15 assault weapon. It fire 30 shots as quickly as you can pull the trigger before reloading (made easy by the plug-in magazine), and it can be fitted with a bump stock to turn it into a machine gun. There is no legitimate reason for a civilian to be in possession of such a gun:
Hunting rifles? Fine. Assault rifles? No. Hand guns for self defense? These cause the vast majority of gun deaths in the U.S., so no.
Since a gun is portable, where isn't there danger? The list of places where mass shootings have occurred includes schools, colleges, night clubs, concerts, churches, McDonalds, army bases, navy yards, movie theaters, places of business, Indian reservations, immigration centers, post offices, restaurants, and so forth. The question with a much shorter answer would be, "Where hasn't there been a mass shooting?" Phone booths? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 20709 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.4
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There is no evidence of diminished mental health in the U.S. versus other western countries. We have a problem with guns.
The only people who need to "spend some time trying to figure out why" are those trying to avoid an answer. The obvious answer to "why" is guns.
"Possibly to good purpose"? Getting rid of the guns is obviously to a "good purpose," since with no guns there could be no gun deaths. Prior to the invention of the gun there were no gun deaths.
Yes, we do have "a particular problem that needs addressing," and that problem is too many guns.
Taking away the guns is the most sane solution, and it is a proven solution as demonstrated by the rest of the civilized world.
The problem is crazy people in denial of the simple fact that more guns mean more gun deaths, and that the more lethal the gun the more gun deaths.
Psychologists and psychiatrists will tell you there is no way to pre-identify who is going to murder.
Yes, precisely, pre-identifying who will murder "isn't really possible," so why did you mention it?
You keep saying this, but everything else you say contradicts it.
I think Taq is right that you should stop turning this into a left versus right issue. This is a case of those who are sincere about solving the gun murder problem versus those who are not, and simply because they like guns.
I know how to keep mass murders like the one in Las Vegas from happening. No assault rifles. No bump stocks. No high capacity magazines. No bullets that cause massive damage.
Seriously?
That's for sure.
Making sure everyone is unarmed is the sane solution, and the sooner we start the better. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 20709 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
In other words you have no answer to Ringo's post showing the absurdity of your position.
But that's the logical endpoint of your argument. Teachers committing murder or making mistakes will require the arming of ever more teachers to take out those teachers, and on and on. Get off the crazy bus.
Making as much of the country as possible into a gun-free zone is the answer.
Making untenable arguments like this is the actual red herring. When everyone has a gun, telling good guys from bad guys is the biggest problem. You're in favor of creating more situations where good guys get hurt.
The only thing different about the U.S. is the increasingly easy availability of guns and bullets of very high lethality.
You stated you were backing away from your support of the Israel approach.
Name a place that isn't vulnerable to an attack by a lone gunman with an assault rifle?
If you don't think this is the time to argue this then why don't you do as you say? The fact of the matter is that after a mass shooting is only a bad time to talk about it for those who are permanently unwilling to offer any meaningful answers. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 20709 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
Really? Then what did you mean? You argued that we should "keep guns out of the hands of the crazed ones" (Message 69), so what is this quality of the "crazed ones" that would allow us to recognize them and keep them from getting guns?
Yeah, like all those sitting duck audiences in Europe, Australia and other western style countries that get slaughtered in mass shooting after mass shooting. Oh, wait a minute, those countries don't have mass shootings, because they haven't got many guns. Gee, I guess you've made another false argument. --Percy
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