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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Posts: 5055
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.9

Message 113 of 909 (828878)
02-26-2018 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by NoNukes
02-25-2018 10:42 PM

Re: How bad is this idea?
I dunno.

Some several months ago, upwards to over a year ago, in the midst of all kinds of political insanity, some USA state with some kinds of insane open-carry laws played host to some kind of insane right-wing political rally.

I remember the standard sick joke of mixing all kinds of toxic factors that must inevitably result in complete and utter disaster, to which you casually remark, "What could possibly go wrong?"

And yet, surprisingly, complete and utter insane mayhem did not happen.

Personally, I think that they were behaving themselves only because they knew we were watching.

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 Message 112 by NoNukes, posted 02-25-2018 10:42 PM NoNukes has seen this message

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Message 114 of 909 (828879)
02-26-2018 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by NoNukes
02-25-2018 10:42 PM

Re: How bad is this idea?
Personally. Our teenage son was interested in weaponry. At a local sports shop, an Enfield rifle was available. My then-wife, my son's own mother, gave me a direct order to buy MY OWN SON that weapon. I directly refused that order, since introducing such a weapon into my family could only serve to endanger my family. What happened? Her indifference to my concerns resulted in my son killing himself with that very weapon she had placed in her own hands.

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Posts: 5055
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Message 856 of 909 (886213)
05-10-2021 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 855 by Phat
05-10-2021 3:36 PM

Re: Big Guns
Ditto, not a gun afficionado, but I've studied it a bit.

"Slug throwers" (sci-fi term for these kinetic-energy weapons) impart a packet of kinetic energy (K) to their targets:

K = mv2

In the MKS system (meter-kilogram-second) K is measured in joules:
          1 joule = 1 kg·m2·sec-2

To calculate and compare the K of different firearms, you need to know two properties: muzzle velocity and mass of the projectile. Here are a few examples (using MKS):

  • Walther PPK ("Polizeipistole, Kriminal", police detective pistol made popular by James Bond)

    Muzzle velocity -- 970 fps (295.656 mps)
    Ammo (mass of projectile) -- 9x17mm (6.18 g = 0.00618 kg)
    K = 0.00618 kg × (295.656 mps)2 = 540.2 joules

  • Beretta M9 (adopted by US military)

    Muzzle velocity -- 1155 fps (352.044 mps)
    Ammo (mass of projectile) -- 9x19mm (7.49 g = 0.00749 kg)
    K = 0.00749 kg × (352.044 mps)2 = 928.273 joules

  • M16A1

    Muzzle velocity -- 3280 fps (999.744 mps)
    Ammo (mass of projectile) -- 5.56x45mm (3.65 g = 0.00365 kg)
    K = 0.00365 kg × (999.744 mps)2 = 3648.13 joules

  • AR 15

    Muzzle velocity -- 2700 fps (822.96 mps)
    Ammo (mass of projectile) -- 5.56x45mm (3.65 g = 0.00365 kg)
    K = 0.00365 kg × (822.96 mps)2 = 2472 joules

Even though the AR 15's slugs are about half the mass of the sidearms' slugs, the kinetic energy they impart is about 3 times greater because of their much higher velocity; ideally, with slugs of the same mass when you triple their velocity you increase their kinetic energy by a factor of nine.

Another effect of the much higher velocity is what we saw in the video when the AR round ripped through the ballistic gelatin. I think I've heard that referred to as cavitation, but it's caused by the shock wave which would be much less for a slower projectile.

I've also heard over the years that an M16 round will tumble, especially when it enters the body, thus doing much more damage than a sidearm round would.

On the radio a few months ago the expert being interviewed described the differences in effect and had a scale for comparing the lethality/damage imparted by different firearms. The AR15 rated considerable higher on that scale than a 9mm sidearm.

As to Percy's original question/comment, I've only heard radio reports of that incident and from what I heard I would assume that a sidearm had been used instead of an AR15.

It was in an enclosed area, which would have placed him in close proximity with his intended victims. A long gun is a better choice when there's some distance between you and your target; if they are close enough to close distance to you, they would have a chance of disarming you. All they need to do to neutralize you as an immediate threat would be to wrestle the muzzle into a neutral direction. Doing that when you're armed with a sidearm would be much more difficult.

So I would think that if the gunman had done any amount of planning, he would have chosen to use a sidearm. Just my own guess.


On the subject of "slug throwers", in the armory of Burg Eltz on the Mosel I saw something I had never known even existed. Laid out there with the other medieval weaponry was a row of handheld catapults. They had an arm and bucket and some kind of spring to throw the arm and its payload (eg, a rock you picked up) forward when you release it, like your typical catapult. I never knew any such thing existed.

At the same castle they also had about a dozen functional miniature cannons with barrels up to a foot or two long. The guide explained that traveling armament salesmen would take those with him to demonstrate how the real thing would look and work as well as to demonstrate the quality of their craftmanship. And if you put in an order for cannons, you could keep one of the miniatures of the model you ordered. Hence the castle's collection.

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Message 861 of 909 (886220)
05-11-2021 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 859 by Tangle
05-11-2021 1:45 AM

Re: News From Colorado
It varies from state to state since most gun laws are state laws.

The entire gun issue has also been heavily politicized, especially by the National Rifle Association (NRA -- which is not doing as well now that it has lost its Russian funding).

But in my opinion the really fucked up aspect are the open-carry laws. One female friend posted a photo of a guy buying groceries wearing a gun belt with holstered sidearms on either side and other handguns strapped to his legs and ankles. This was how he walks around in his daily business! She was trying to imagine how freakishly small his penis must be to drive him to over-compensate so drastically.

One aspect of open-carry is that in some open-carry states you can not long visibly carry handguns, but also long guns (eg, rifles, assault rifles -- see Open carry in the US). I seem to recall that one recent mass shooting in a supermarket where the shooter walked in openly carrying his assault rifle and then opened fire. The thing is that openly and visibly carrying an assault rifle into a store is completely legal in that state (Colorado, I seem to recall), so anyone observing him walking from his car to the store with an assault rifle would not raise any alarms (it is not allowed in New York, Illinois, Tennessee, Florida, Hawaii, Puerto Rico and other territories). In such a situation, you do not know that you are in mortal danger until he opens fire; because of the open carry laws you literally cannot see it coming.

Interestingly, California's stricter gun laws date back to the late 1960's under Republican rule (I think Reagan was Governor at the time). All it took was the publication of photographs of heavily armed Black Panthers.

As you said, fucked up.

This message is a reply to:
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Message 905 of 909 (886289)
05-13-2021 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 890 by Phat
05-12-2021 10:36 AM

Re: Violence and root causes.
Perhaps, but we cant simply have 51% of the people voting in laws that 100% are required to follow.

Two big problems with that:

  1. In a democracy, it's "the majority rules." You take a vote and everybody does what the majority decided through that vote. That's how democracy works!

  2. We don't have a complete democracy (eg, as Athens did and had to go to extremes to corral its citizens in to get them to vote; ie, it didn't work), but rather a representative republic in which the laws are made by representatives who are chosen by their constituents through democratic means.

The sad situation we are in now is that through various forms of political skullduggery the representatives of a distinct minority of the population form the majority of many legislative bodies in this country.

That means that the majority of Americans are being subjected to laws imposed on them by the minority! And now we are seeing representatives of that minority making new laws to further dilute the vote of the majority thus giving even more power to that minority.

Time to do some math:

US Population 331,449,281
Non-citizens -25,000,000
Citizens 306,449,281

Proportion of population 18 and over: 76%
Eligible to vote 232,901,454

Registered Republicans -- 36,132,743 15.5% of eligible to vote
Registered Democrats -- 48,517,845 20.8% of eligible to vote
Unaffiliated or other -- 148,250,866 63.7% of eligible to vote

Presidential Vote:
for Biden -- 81,268,924 51.3% 34.9% of eligible to vote
for Trump -- 74,216,154 46.86% 31.9% of eligible to vote
for other -- 2,898,325 1.83% 1.24% of eligible to vote
Total votes -- 158,383,403 ------ 68% of eligible to vote

Republican support for Trump over party as per April 2021 poll -- 44%

All registered Republicans and Democrats voted (the weakest part of the assumption) and they did so by party.
32,751,079 unaffiliated voted for Biden
38,083,411 unaffiliated voted for Trump
2,898,325 unaffiliated voted for other
74,518,051 unaffiliated did not vote

Basically, what the numbers show is that Democrats outnumber Republicans and that the swing demographic (ie, unaffiliated and other) is surprisingly large.

Also, the Trumpian base amounts to about 44% of Republicans or about 15.9 million, about 6.8% of the total electorate (or about 10% of the electorate that had bothered to vote).

And yet the Republican politicians holding seats in both houses of Congress as well as in state legislatures are Trumpian!. And in many of those state legislatures those Trumpians control those legislatures, while in Congress they have controlled Congress in the past and they have Congress very narrowly split (and could take the Congress back in 2022) while representing only 10%!

Even if we were to give them the benefit of the doubt and allow them to be deemed as representing 46.86% of the electorate, that is still a minority! A minority making laws that adversely affect the majority!

So your complaint about the "51%" is not only contrary to how democracy works, but it is also far out of touch with reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 890 by Phat, posted 05-12-2021 10:36 AM Phat has seen this message

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