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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 349 of 848 (840569)
10-02-2018 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Tangle
10-02-2018 3:06 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
My point is that if you think that Jesus would approve of you and Jar strutting around carrying guns and knives you're corrupting everything he's supposed to stand for.

Jesus also said that if you don't have a sword to sell your cloak. If anything its an argument showing biblical contradictions, but not necessarily an argument against self-defense. But I will agree that Christians often advocate and seem inextricably linked to violence which, given most of what Jesus said, seems odd.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 351 of 848 (840572)
10-02-2018 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by ringo
10-02-2018 12:54 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Turning the other cheek is a pretty good argument against self-defense.

"I didn't come to bring peace, but a sword." - Jesus "Hippie" Christ

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by ringo, posted 10-02-2018 12:54 PM ringo has responded

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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 381 of 848 (840639)
10-02-2018 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by Tangle
10-02-2018 6:38 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Tell me, do you honestly, hand on bible, think Jesus would walk through the streets carrying two hand guns and a knife or two? Was that his intended message?

Uhhhh.... duhhhh.

One of the more troubling aspects of Americanized Christianity is the amalgamation of war and God, as if the two are designed to be inextricably linked.

There are verse after verse about humility, long-suffering, peace, but so many Christians, especially in America, conflate their military history with Christianity to somehow make them fit. American patriotism and Christianity have nothing to do whatsoever with one another.

Imagine what Christians could do such as feeding the poor, visiting those in prisons, etc instead of chastising people on internet forums. I fully indict myself in that when I was a Christian. I spent more time trying to prove the accuracy of my beliefs than I did exercising it in earnest and sincere gratitude and care for my fellow man.

I wonder if anyone else here comes to mind... perhaps another finger-wagging moralist prig.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 392 of 848 (840670)
10-03-2018 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by Faith
10-02-2018 7:08 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
I'm sure some Christians do confuse their Christian life with their worldly life, and I'm also sure these discussions usually revolve around just that sort of confusion, unbelievers in particular always misapplying what Jesus said to individual believers, confusing it with the obligations of government and citizenship in this world.

What exactly is a "worldly life" versus a "Christian life?" Real life versus fantasy land?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Faith, posted 10-02-2018 7:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


(2)
Message 393 of 848 (840671)
10-03-2018 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 391 by Minnemooseus
10-02-2018 11:39 PM


Re: Open carry making you a preferred target?
Really a reply to Jar & ICANT, but also a follow up to Percy's message.
I think that being an open carry person would somewhat be like wearing a jacket with a bullseye on it.

If a full-blown wacko is out with his gun, who is going to catch his attention? Who is going to make him feel threatened?

Is he going to be deterred by seeing your holstered sidearm? I don't think so. He's thinking "That guy is going to be dead before he can unholster his sidearm."

Drawing attention and making yourself appear threatening is not the way to make yourself safer.

I tend to agree for these reasons. Open Carry is now legal in Texas and I will respect the law, but as for me, I choose to be as low key as possible. I don't like people knowing I have a gun on me for a lot of reasons.

Having a gun on your hip isn't a deterrent as much as it is a big, bright neon sign that you're the first target to dispose of.

Its been my experience that the people that walk around open carry do so for attention - they tend to gravitate towards stirring up shit just to see what will happen. Being armed is an issue of practicality not a fashion statement or a political statement.

Secondly, guns make a lot of people uncomfortable. Having one so brazenly and openly exposed just invites trouble that otherwise would be avoided by concealing it and them being none-the-wiser.

Just my two cents.

An interesting story about Texas. All the laws around knives, swords, axes, you name it, have been taken off the books. I got a call on a guy walking around with a Samurai sword and had to let him on his merry way. But talk about inviting problems...

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Minnemooseus, posted 10-02-2018 11:39 PM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 406 of 848 (840752)
10-04-2018 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 400 by Percy
10-03-2018 12:27 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Obviously the onset of mental illness, despondency, violent anger, decrepitness, drunkenness, carelessness, poor judgment, etc., could occur at any time/place and then extend on into the future.

Your whole argument seems to be that people can snap at any time, therefore they shouldn't be afforded even the opportunity to be armed. How easily can you make that same argument for anything else... knives, vehicles, cinderblocks, household kitchen items to make bombs, etc. You have to balance the utility of something with what its been demonstrated to do. For every gun fired maliciously, there are 10,000 that haven't.... because it wasn't necessary.

But say gun laws change and your guns are taken away. You're saying you'd be willing to replace them on the black market. Scary.

That's what violent felons would be doing and already do.

So driven by delusions of shootouts with criminals where you save the day, you're going to make things even worse by obtaining guns by any means necessary, thereby increasing the danger to yourself and those around you.

Well, when you consider that virtually all the maniacs that have gone on shooting rampages have been stopped by guns its not so impossible to believe. There's an interesting YouTube channel named "Active Self-Protection" that gathers an assortment of clips of what would have been massacres that were stopped early... which is why we don't hear about them. Not sensational enough and not in keeping with the agenda.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by Percy, posted 10-03-2018 12:27 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 463 of 848 (841987)
10-24-2018 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by Percy
10-22-2018 9:15 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
you're the one placing yourself in greater danger by having firearms around the house, particularly that are loaded and not locked up.

Percy thinks of guns in the same manner someone would think of a timebomb with the world's most sensitive hair-trigger... at any given second, it's gonna go off.

The US has a greater suicide rate than the UK because guns are a more lethal means of suicide than any other means, and the US has far more guns. Check out this chart of many countries with both lower and higher suicide rates than the US. Look at the much higher proportion of suicide by gun in the US as compared to all other countries

LOL, so???? How is that an argument against guns? All that means is that in the absence of guns, determined suicidal people find other ways of killing themselves. That would literally be like finding the nation with the highest rate of suicide by overdose and then complaining about the evils of modern medicine. Ludicrous argument.

Guns are the best method for impulsive suicides. Other means require more preparation and/or planning, providing opportunity for changing one's mind.

Studies show that females rarely use a gun because they care about what they look like in death. They tend to choose overdose, slit wrists, or any method that reduces trauma for this reason. Men tend to use guns, high falls, or any means that's going to get the job done with little to no chance of suffering. In any event, I fail to see how suicide methods are an argument against guns.

On the other side of the ledger, the more urban states (presumably with more crooks and gangs) that have fewer gun owners also have fewer gun deaths, like New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Connecticut and California.

Not surprising, since economic health almost always has a causal relationship with crime rates.

Surely you're not suggesting that liberals chipped away at Chicago's gun laws. Conservatives have little power in Chicago, not zero power.

I think the point he's making is that in cities instituting liberal policies have little effect on violent crime. Kind of like the whole "gun free zone" area being filled with guns. It's difficult to legally purchase a firearm in places like Chicago and yet their rates of homicide by gun is off the charts... which means those people are obtaining illegal arms. Not surprising. Mexico and Russia have incredibly strict gun control and none of that translates into their exorbitant rates of violence in any appreciable manner.

I don't want to eliminate all gun ownership, just most. Hunting rifles are okay. Handguns and assault rifles are not.

What's the difference? Just so you know, "assault rifles" are basically no different than a hunting rifle, except to say that they are less powerful on account of a much smaller caliber. And there is already a weapons ban on automatic rifles, so it seems specious to be accepting of one but not the other.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by Percy, posted 10-22-2018 9:15 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 484 of 848 (842027)
10-25-2018 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by Percy
10-25-2018 11:33 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Look at the relative length of the green line ("Not gun-related") to the red line ("Gun-related") for the US as compared to all other countries. How is that not an argument against guns?

Your own graph demonstrates that in the absence of a gun, people are going to find ways of killing themselves. You're blaming guns when it is convenient to do so and purposefully excluding all other disconfirming evidence. So, looking at your graph we could conclude that South Koreans are a more suicidal people than other cultures... I mean, that's what the graph is saying, right? Or we could conclude that suicide is a little more complicated than just looking at values and determining a hypothesis solely on the numbers.

And how, exactly, do you reach that conclusion from the information in the chart, aside from rampant imagination.

Are you joking? Aside from the fact that I am aware of various methods of suicide, your own chart demonstrates that by the referenced green bar. With that information alone, you can literally see that people commit suicide by other means aside from a gun.

Well, yes it is an ludicrous argument, and nothing like the situation with guns. You'd like your contrived argument to be similar and realistic, because then you'd have an argument, but it's not, not even remotely.

How so? You will underhandedly find any reason, even suicide, to vilify guns. But your own arguments demonstrate an obvious and selective bias. If all things were equal, you would be as harsh on the rope used for hanging, or the high places that aren't fenced off, or the pills used to kill themselves, or the sharp objects used to tear open veins and arteries.... You don't see that as an obvious problem where you will happily exclude relevant information?

If you fail to see it then you're not thinking, because it's fairly obvious after even just a little reflection.

It's only obvious to those who would willfully exclude disconfirming evidence.

If these states were all we looked at then it could be argued that both contribute to the lower gun death rate, but we also have the data from the high gun death states, and as I already pointed out, their wide range of crime rates implies that crime rate is not the controlling factor, and that the high gun ownership rate is.

As with anything, treating the symptom is not the same as treating the disease. For instance, it's not the knife that is the central issue in a place like London... it's the reason why people feel that murder or maiming is the best recourse to resolve conflict.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/...2757/knife-crime-epidemic/Surely you're not suggesting that liberals chipped away at Chicago's gun laws. Conservatives have little power in Chicago, not zero power.

I already pointed out how easy it is to get guns in Chicago just by taking a ten minute drive. It's the same phenomenon as the border between New Hampshire and Massachusetts. Liquor sales in New Hampshire are restricted to state owned/controlled liquor stores, so there are tons of liquor stores just across the border in Massachusetts. Firework sales in Massachusetts are illegal, so there are tons of firework stores just across the border in New Hampshire. I imagine there are tons of gun stores just outside the Chicago city limits. Obtaining illegal guns in Chicago is just way too easy.

The point is that outlawing guns isn't a solution. In fact, it worsens the problem because the only people that have the guns are exactly the kind's of people that are giving you the problem in the first place.

That's a big and important difference. I do not think people should own handguns or assault rifles or any firearm of large caliber and/or of great energy. This is all the bullet you need for hunting

A .22 for hunting? Hunting what, gophers?

I'm against assault rifles, whether or not they're automatic.

Why, though?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by Percy, posted 10-25-2018 11:33 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 666 of 848 (846127)
12-29-2018 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 665 by Percy
12-29-2018 4:32 PM


Re: New Info on Parkland Mass Shooting
It's one thing to make brave gun talk from the safety of a training program or a shooting range, but when the time comes how many of you will actually rush toward gunfire? I'm sure many of you have wives and children at home, and what would it do to them were you to die? Did it never occur to you that you might think about that as you ponder whether to rush forward? Did you never think that when you experienced the reality that it might be far different than the training, and that losing your life would be a very real possibility? Will it ever become obvious to you that more guns and more deadly guns just make your jobs more difficult and dangerous?

The officers at Parkland sounded undertrained in my opinion. Plus, standard practice has changed over the years. For instance, most departments taught that if you if you have a barricaded subject that you contain, contain, contain and call SWAT out. The old rationale was that there was too great of a risk to hostages who might feel panic, feel cornered, and execute people in desperation.

The new standard is prioritized by:

1. Stop the Killing: go in immediately to prevent more people from being executed. As we see with mass shootings, the shooters often are motivated by as killing as many people as humanly possible in as little time as humanly possible. There is no longer room or time for containment.

2. Stop the Dying: As long as there is not an active threat immediately in front of you, triage those patients and get them to safety. You cordon off a safe zone to triage the wounded.

I can't speak for other departments but I've yet to see anyone exhibit traits of unreasonable cowardice. Whenever a gun call comes out, usually multiple people assign to those calls and race to the scene.

I think most departments probably do a good job of weeding out people that just don't have right temperament to be able to reliably respond to those kinds of calls.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by Percy, posted 12-29-2018 4:32 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 667 by Percy, posted 12-30-2018 9:35 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 668 of 848 (846232)
12-31-2018 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 667 by Percy
12-30-2018 9:35 AM


Re: New Info on Parkland Mass Shooting
And gun control hasn't changed in any meaningful way. And the gun death rate has climbed. Until the gun nuts acknowledge that guns are the problem and not training or criminals or not enough guns or whatever else cockamamie excuse they come up with, America will continue to be the leader of western civilization in gun deaths.

Go to Syria or Mexico, which outlaws private ownership of firearms and then tell me how outlawing firearms makes any meaningful change. The problem has always been why people feel compelled to kill in the first place, not the chosen instrument.

I've got a better idea to stop the killing: take away the guns.

Tell me how you'd plan to go about doing that. There's more guns than there are people in the US and half of the citizens won't go quietly. So tell me how that works in actuality before offering me pie in the sky fantasies.

The Broward county deputies did exactly that: when notified of the ongoing Parkland shooting they raced to the scene. Where they milled about outside doing nothing.

Okay, how would Percy and his limitless supply of testosterone-laden balls handle such a situation?

You're living in fairytale land. There is no way to identify heroes and cowards in advance.

Oh, so, is the police force filled with cowards or filled with hotheads, cuz you seem to change depending on which way the wind blows?

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by Percy, posted 12-30-2018 9:35 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 669 by Percy, posted 01-01-2019 9:11 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 673 of 848 (846463)
01-06-2019 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 669 by Percy
01-01-2019 9:11 AM


Re: New Info on Parkland Mass Shooting
Boy, way to be wrong two different ways. Syria and Mexico are not countries of western civilization (measured economically, of course). And both Syria and Mexico permit gun ownership. Remove the incorrect parts and you said nothing.

First of all, Mexico is a part of western civilization, but that's a total non-sequitur either way. What does western civilization have to with your argument? Your argument hinges on banning guns in order to curb violence. You seem to believe there is a direct correlation. Common sense and statistics prove otherwise. Let me know how that's working out for the citizens of Syria and Mexico, both of whom sanction heavy restrictions on firearms. Between that and some European countries with unrestrictive gun laws (Switzerland comes to mind) their incidences of murder, let alone murder by gun, are very low. So obviously there is something else at play that you are conveniently glossing over.

quote:
The problem has always been why people feel compelled to kill in the first place, not the chosen instrument.

Yes, we know this is your fantasy.

What does that even mean?

So your argument isn't that guns aren't responsible but that there's no practical solution. Yet somehow other countries have managed to implement strong gun ownership laws, so it can't be as impossible as you say.

When you compare apples to apples and not apples to Chevrolet's. America is so inundated by a gun culture. Secondly, what kind of people tend to be in law enforcement... the people who fanatically hate guns or have an appreciation for them? Do you honestly believe someone swiping a pen tomorrow is going to disarm the majority of America? Ban gun ownership and watch the homicide by gun rate skyrocket to unprecedented levels within the hour of its legislative passing. Therein lies the cruel irony of it all.

I opposed what you said, arguing that rational people with families and loved ones and love of life would be highly motivated to not rush toward gunfire, and the Broward County deputies followed their feelings instead of your insipid guidelines and did not rush toward death, not to mention toward a situation where they have only one valid target (who won't necessarily be easy to identify because of the possibility of "a good guy with a gun") while the perpetrator has everyone as a valid target. I applaud their decision. The situation was already placed beyond their control by the insipid gun laws that make it possible for an individual to kill many people in a very short period of time.

All I did was explain that there has been a recent shift in tactical response concerning active shooter situations. My reason for mentioning it is that there may have been different training protocols to explain why one department set up containment while another rushed in. That was my only point.

You keep saying this though I have told you again and again that I don't believe the problem of police attacks on the very people they're empowered to protect is because of bad apples. I believe the police population reflects the same qualities as the general population, and that they make mistakes of action and judgment, just like everyone else. But the problem is exacerbated because they have guns.

And you've also explicitly stated in previous conversations that you believe SWAT teams should be armed with guns to handle scenarios exactly like the one's you're describing. So, again, which is it?

If you can only rebut by making stuff up then why rebut at all? Wouldn't it be better to wait until you can think of stuff that is actually true?

No, the issue appears to be that you misunderstood what I was saying and why I was saying it.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 669 by Percy, posted 01-01-2019 9:11 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 674 of 848 (846464)
01-06-2019 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 671 by Percy
01-02-2019 9:50 AM


Re: How Do you Get from Here to There?
As long as the Supreme Court decision stands that decided that the militia so prominently mentioned in the 2nd amendment has no bearing on the right to keep and bear arms, people like Jar and ICANT and Hyro will continue to feel empowered to ignore the consequences of widespread gun ownership or blame them on other factors. This does make implementation of effective gun control a tough row to hoe. I don't know how we get from where we are to where we have to be.

Maybe I've never really shared the heart of my contention. It's not that I am incapable of seeing a connection between guns and gun deaths any more or any less than I can see a connection between motor vehicle deaths and motor vehicles. It's not that I'm out to protect the gun. I recognize a gun to be a tool with one true purpose... and that's killing.... and killing, by and large, is ugly... and we tend to abhor ugly things. I get it. That is not lost on me.

My problem with your argument, however, is that it is naively simplistic. You are treating the symptom instead of treating the disease. A gun cannot will itself. It requires people, with deliberation or malice aforethought, to commit a murder. You don't want to consider why one nation peacefully can coexist with guns only to be used defensively and why another has murder rates off the charts by using them offensively. The reality is that one culture is sick and the other is not... the gun is an afterthought. But for you, it's the only thought.

War is fought with weaponry... its an ugly reality, but its also the only reason you aren't a German-speaking Nazi right now.

The staunch reality is that criminals, by definition, are people who do not obey the law. So when you pass sweeping legislation, who are you really impacting and who are you really empowering? And that's the irony, Percy, that for whatever reason you just refuse to even consider.

Its not about the gun. It never has been. Its about leveling a playing field marred with people who will, if given the chance, prey on others if something can be gained from it.

War is ugly, but sometimes necessary. Guns are ugly, but sometimes necessary.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by Percy, posted 01-02-2019 9:50 AM Percy has responded

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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 774 of 848 (852700)
05-15-2019 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 773 by Percy
05-15-2019 11:37 AM


Re: Is a lifetime of due diligence even possible?
peculating a bit, let's say you've been a gun enthusiast all your life. In your 20's and 30's and 40's you took training and retraining courses, you went to the practice range several times a week, you familiarized yourself with your firearms so intimately that you could disassemble and reassemble them in less than five minutes blindfolded. Sure, you ignored the part of the training about keeping your firearms and ammunition locked up separately, but that was out of necessity. What good is a gun for self defense if it's locked away?
But putting a gun in a nightstand or in your car was obviously dangerous, so you went with concealed carry, even around the house. It was inconvenient and hot to always wear enough clothes to keep the gun concealed, but self defense is essential, and so you did it.

But time goes by and you get older and less passionate about guns. You no longer take training courses or go to gun shows. Wearing extra clothing on hot days becomes more and more uncomfortable, even just a short sleeved vest. You begin slipping the gun into your nightstand or under the seat of your car. More time goes by, you get older and forgetful, and eventually you forget about the gun altogether. It winds up under the seat of your vintage World War II jeep.

Now let's get to the facts I know.

Now you're 76. One day for a widely attended baseball game in Millington, Tennessee, you display your jeep outside the stadium. A boy playing in the jeep finds the gun, thinks it's a toy, and shoots his mother, who is in the hospital in critical condition. You are arrested and charged with reckless endangerment with a deadly weapon.

Source: 8-year-old boy accidentally shoots mother at baseball game, gun owner charged

Then you go to prison for Making Firearm Accessible To A Child. It is the gun owner's responsibility and if found grossly negligent, you will pay the price... on top of a stinging conscience for the rest of your life.

But then, a similar question could also be posited.... When you were younger you used to be enthusiastic and up to date with guns. But you're older now and enough time has passed where there's never been a reason to ever use it. As a result, you become complacent and you carry it less and less... lulled by the days where nothing has ever happened. Eventually you lock it away and no longer give it much thought. One night, as night falls, you hear a crash on the front door. Your home is being invaded by the depraved and unrepentant of this world. Your entire family is massacred before your eyes. You were their protector and you failed. The only reason you ever bought the damn thing was as an insurance policy from this very scenario that, while remote, is always a possibility. And on the big day, you failed and people are now dead... the wrong people, as a matter of fact.

And that sting of conscience is with this person too...

For every hypothetical scenario, there is its counterpart waiting in the wing. There's a multitude of ways people can make bad choices in life - choices that may rock the very foundations of their being.

Complacency is a son of a bitch... Why put my seatbelt on? The store is literally .3 miles away. I've driven this route 5,000 times with my seatbelt on and nothing has happened.

But I guess your point is that we should all stop driving cars because its next to impossible to vigilant your entire life. That is what you're trying to say, right?

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 773 by Percy, posted 05-15-2019 11:37 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 775 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2019 12:09 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 776 by Percy, posted 05-16-2019 9:13 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 777 of 848 (852719)
05-16-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 775 by PaulK
05-16-2019 12:09 AM


Re: Is a lifetime of due diligence even possible?
Percy’s scenario wasn’t hypothetical. As is quite obvious if you read his post.

And neither are murders. My point, which was "quite obvious" if you read it, was that any good argument has a counter-argument. And we can "what-if" something to death. The fundamental question is should an idiot's actions get to dictate mine? The answer is no


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 775 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2019 12:09 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 780 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2019 11:35 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 788 by Percy, posted 05-16-2019 1:23 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6146
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 778 of 848 (852720)
05-16-2019 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 776 by Percy
05-16-2019 9:13 AM


Re: Is a lifetime of due diligence even possible?
I'm sure this is a great comfort to the family of the critically injured mother.

Laws on murder are little consolation to family members affected by it. Seems like you just want a world where bad things never happen. A wonderful ideal, yes, but plausible? No.

As has been pointed out many times in this thread, guns are more likely to be used against family, friends and others nearby than against criminals.

Correction. Guns are more likely to NEVER be used at all. But then, insurance is more likely to never be used at all... which is why being in the insurance business is profitable. But it sure is nice to have when its needed.

That a mother was critically injured by her son with a gun hidden under the seat of a vintage World War II jeep is not hypothetical. Here's the news story again: 8-year-old boy accidentally shoots mother at baseball game, gun owner charged

The hypothetical I'm referring to is the argument you're posing as a result of your real-world example. Because of X, Y happened as a result. Therefore get rid of X so that Y cannot happen. And I'm saying get rid of X and P becomes the new variable. And on and on and on... In feudal China the government outlawed private ownership of swords. The populace then started using a threshing tool, the Nunchuck, as weapon. It used to be a tool to knock the heads of grain from the stalks. In the absence of an ability to defend themselves, the people then weaponized the benign tool. Of course, people are killed by planks of wood, rakes, sticks, etc.... prisons demonstrate no limits of human ingenuity, fashioning weapons from even cellophane wrappers under heat. The point being that your real enemy is the human itself with a mind for malice. That's always been and always will be the actual issue that needs to be addressed. You think that changing externalities will change internalities. I don't.

Vehicle deaths will continue to decline as manufacturers, encouraged by government, continue to work hard at improving vehicle safety. Crash avoidance systems that are becoming increasingly available should make a big contribution.
By contrast gun manufacturers are working hard to make guns more and more deadly. Here's how gun deaths have increased year over year

Guns are designed to be lethal so, yeah, go figure that the aim is to increase their lethality. Cars are not designed to be dangerous and there is an incentive to make them less dangerous... but they still are dangerous, is the point. Its one giant argument of utility. Is the risk worth the reward?

I do find it ironic that you choose to live in a state that probably sets the gold standard for gun ownership rights. I think maybe you should move to Illinois which is heavily restrictive... its obvious their laws are working. New Hampshire is just too dangerous with all of their lax gun laws. I hear Chicago is lovely, especially this time of year.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 776 by Percy, posted 05-16-2019 9:13 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 779 by Theodoric, posted 05-16-2019 11:31 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 781 by ringo, posted 05-16-2019 11:43 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 790 by Percy, posted 05-16-2019 2:02 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
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