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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 244 of 1184 (840338)
09-27-2018 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by jar
09-27-2018 8:51 AM


Re: Today's handguns
I mean, I can see the pride and sense of responsibility entailed in carrying guns and being allowed to do so. We would be far safer if people like you were around whenever a rogue gunman attempts to inflict carnage on people. I have a question, though. Was the wild west really as wild as the John Wayne movies and the TV show Gunsmoke portrayed it as? How many people were handy with their firearms? How many gunfights actually occurred in History?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by jar, posted 09-27-2018 8:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 09-27-2018 9:21 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 263 of 1184 (840380)
09-28-2018 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by jar
09-28-2018 7:23 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Why do you carry all of the extra ammunition? Do you expect to meet a situation?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 09-28-2018 7:23 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 266 of 1184 (840384)
09-28-2018 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Percy
09-28-2018 10:19 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
I told him that guns represent phallic symbolism to him...perhaps at an unconscious level. jar has always been a man of responsibility and confidence, and his guns project his earned right to carry his responsibility. Perhaps he sees himself as a watchman over society around him...he may argue that it does not matter what others think of him or his habits--it only matters what he does and that he lives in a country that has given him the right to be that watchman based on the responsibility and training that he has invested in it.
I can see your basic argument that there is no social value in handguns nor the need to carry them. My only comment is the phrase I remember hearing:
And this one:
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Percy, posted 09-28-2018 10:19 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 09-28-2018 11:45 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 273 by Percy, posted 09-28-2018 1:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 271 of 1184 (840389)
09-28-2018 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by jar
09-28-2018 11:52 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
but you never answered my questions.
why do you carry so much ammunition?
do you see yourself as a responsible watchman over society?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by jar, posted 09-28-2018 11:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by jar, posted 09-28-2018 6:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 278 of 1184 (840405)
09-29-2018 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Percy
09-28-2018 1:07 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Looks as if jar won't discuss his personal feelings on why he should be allowed these rights. Which is fine...I encourage everyone to look at this question from Quora and read a few of the comments afterward...they are from NRA members and former military/police type individuals...and they shed light on rationale: Why do people feel the need to carry a gun if they never intend to shoot anyone with it?
Also a question for Percy:
Q: Are you for or against totally disarming the Police? Why or why not?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Percy, posted 09-28-2018 1:07 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Tangle, posted 09-29-2018 3:48 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 282 by Percy, posted 09-29-2018 10:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 287 of 1184 (840420)
09-29-2018 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by jar
09-29-2018 11:33 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
jar,to Percy writes:
I enjoy the difficulty and responsibility involved.
Responsibility to society?
And you have not shown any evidence that I place anyone else at risk in any manner different than when I drive a car or walk on the street or many other things I do.
Granted we have not correlated the statistical social risk to tailor to your individual situation. I would imagine that you value your right to carry.
We are simply curious about your basic views regarding the counter-arguments in a larger social context. Our intention (mine at least) is not to beat you in this argument so much as to understand your basic philosophy regarding gun laws and if you feel, as Percy does, that many individuals who are legally allowed to carry guns are not as responsible as you and if this should be an area of social concern.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 11:33 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by ringo, posted 09-29-2018 11:52 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 290 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 12:01 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 291 of 1184 (840425)
09-29-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by jar
09-29-2018 12:01 PM


Handling Our Weapons Responsibly
Phat,to Percy writes:
...I told him that guns represent phallic symbolism to him...perhaps at an unconscious level.
Phat,to jar writes:
...do you see yourself as a responsible watchman over society?
jar,to phat writes:
My motives are irrelevant and you are so bad at guessing you really need to stop.
I think that my phallic symbolism argument has a bit of merit and evidence, even if only humerously!
To wit: Guns, knives, pens. The three categories that you have an interest in, among your other interests!
Psychology Today writes:
According to Freud, the great majority of symbols in dreams are sex symbols. The number three is a symbolic substitute for the entire male genital, whereas the penis alone is represented by long and upright objects such as sticks, umbrellas, poles, trees, or the Washington Monument. It can also be symbolized by objects that can penetrate the body and cause injury — think of knives, daggers, lances, swords, and firearms (especially revolvers). Also substituted for male genitalia are objects out of which water flows, such as faucets and fountains, or objects that can be elongated such as telescopes and collapsible pencils.
Granted, Freuds theories were simplistic and not all inclusive nor specific, but I simply humerously observed that guns, knives and pens all fit the category!
Anyway...getting back on topic..
ringo writes:
I don't exactly see eye-to-eye with jar on gun ownership, and that's fine. Diversity of opinion is healthier than everybody marching in lockstep.
I agree. That is the basic spirit of EvC (or should be) and I feel that by-and-large our arguments and discussions are relevant.
jar writes:
Personal responsibility Phat. I have no responsibility to society beyond obeying the laws and in some cases social norm.(...) I feel little responsibility to actively protect others in MOST cases.
If I were present during a robbery or saw someone breaking into a neighbors house or car then my response would be to call 911 and try to note as much information as I could that might help the police. Even if armed I would most likely not intervene.
If there was a situation where there was a direct and immediate threat to life AND if I was pretty sure I could intervene without endangering other innocents (clear lines of sight, known background, high probability of significant success AND a clear immediate threat) then I might try to stop the threat. But it is NOT something I hope ever happens.
Remember, having a License to Carry a handgun does not provide any defense either criminally or civilly in a shooting incident. I am still responsible and must accept those limitations and risks.
Thanks for your response. We can summerize that we need to be responsible with our "weapon" and the fact that you have no kids shows that you have handled yours quite responsibly.
This from the BBC:
The English words "The pen is mightier than the sword" were first written by novelist and playwright Edward Bulwer-Lytton in 1839, in his historical play Cardinal Richelieu.
Richelieu, chief minister to King Louis XIII, discovers a plot to kill him, but as a priest he is unable to take up arms against his enemies.
His page, Francois, points out: But now, at your command are other weapons, my good Lord.
Richelieu agrees: The pen is mightier than the sword... Take away the sword; States can be saved without it!
The saying quickly gained currency, says Susan Ratcliffe, associate editor of the Oxford Quotations Dictionaries. "By the 1840s it was a commonplace."
Today it is used in many languages, mostly translated from the English. The French version is: "La plume est plus forte que l'epee."

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 12:01 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 311 of 1184 (840454)
09-30-2018 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by Percy
09-30-2018 9:17 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
The debate between you and jar encapsulates the national gun debate succinctly. One side believes that the laws reflect the will of the people and that we should have a right (an earned right) to bear arms responsibly whereas the other side believes that the laws should be changed and that guns...specifically handguns and automatic weapons...should be made illegal. Neither of you will change your opinion. The debate is not (nor should be) a personal issue as none of us here believe that jar is a threat to anybody yet Percy insists that the guns themselves are a threat. Until and unless the laws change, this will always be true. jar may believe that since HE is responsible for those guns that his at least will never be a threat. Thus you both disagree.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Percy, posted 09-30-2018 9:17 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Percy, posted 09-30-2018 12:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 318 of 1184 (840471)
09-30-2018 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by jar
09-30-2018 4:07 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
You can be quite abrupt and rude to Biblical Christians...particularly I CANT and jaywill. If you were ever likely to shoot anyone it would be one of them

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by jar, posted 09-30-2018 4:07 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 339 of 1184 (840506)
10-01-2018 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by Tangle
10-01-2018 3:14 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:
From the way jar talks he probably feels as I do that the gun is just an extension of his body.
I knew that my phallic symbolism argument had merit! (check this article out)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Tangle, posted 10-01-2018 3:14 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 433 of 1184 (841108)
10-08-2018 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 432 by Tangle
10-08-2018 3:15 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
For believers, Jesus is currently alive and interactive. His edicts are not simply pronouncements from a centuries-old compilation of books. Whether or not Jesus would approve of I CANTS behavior would be based on I CANTS inner character and relationship with Him. There is no blanket pronouncement of what Jesus would say to any one of us. Granted this belief leaves a lot of wiggle room and self-justification for any believer to use...so I might point out that its irrelevant what Jesus would say. What is relevant is what current laws dictate.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by Tangle, posted 10-08-2018 3:15 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 12:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 455 of 1184 (841968)
10-24-2018 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by ringo
10-24-2018 1:49 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Sometimes I think that you purposefully get our names wrong. Time to confess.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by ringo, posted 10-24-2018 1:49 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by ringo, posted 10-24-2018 1:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 521 of 1184 (842190)
10-27-2018 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 520 by Percy
10-27-2018 4:16 PM


Re: Mass Shooting in Pittsburgh
OMG! Another one! There is no shortage of crazy people! Percy, you might be right....guns are the common denominator in all of this! I wouldn't take them away from the police just yet, however.
Deadly Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooting Investigated As Hate Crime; Suspect In Custody
quote:
Pittsburgh Public Safety Director Wendell Hissrich told reporters that there were multiple fatalities, but he would not say how many people are dead.
He did say there were at least six injured, including four police officers. The police officers' injuries are not life-threatening; others have injuries that are critical and serious in nature.
Hissrich said a suspect is in custody and was taken to the hospital.
His voice breaking, Hissrich said it was a "very horrific crime scene."

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 520 by Percy, posted 10-27-2018 4:16 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 523 of 1184 (842228)
10-28-2018 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 503 by jar
10-26-2018 9:04 AM


Lou Alessi
Glad to see you back at EvC. I was worried that you had health problems. Out of curiosity, who is "Lou"?
Add By Edit: OK Now I know. Lou Alessi

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 503 by jar, posted 10-26-2018 9:04 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 559 of 1184 (842587)
11-03-2018 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 557 by Percy
11-03-2018 8:46 AM


Snubbing His Nose At Statistics
jar may argue that Jesus did not advocate abolishing swords. The question would be where the swords "place" was. Let's see what his response might be. All that aside, it is evident from the recent arguments in this thread that you advocate no guns and these guys advocate the right (continued right) to own and carry them. I doubt that statistics will ever persuade them to change their mind. In the meantime, this topic will continually highlight the many times in the United States that guns contributed to death. I have yet to see any stories on how guns prevented more death, but there may be one or two out there.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 557 by Percy, posted 11-03-2018 8:46 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 561 by Percy, posted 11-03-2018 10:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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