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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 909 (828348)
02-16-2018 10:11 AM


Trump responding to shootings in Florida...
Trump tweeting his words of wisdom.

quote:
So many signs that the Florida shooter was mentally disturbed, even expelled from school for bad and erratic behavior. Neighbors and classmates knew he was a big problem. Must always report such instances to authorities, again and again!

That's great insight Mr. President. The problem is that people did report this mentally disturbed person. In fact, he even caught the attention of the FBI. It did not do a bit of good.

Emphasis added by me.

http://nymag.com/...r-didnt-keep-him-from-getting-a-gun.html

quote:
After repeated suspensions, Cruz was expelled for unspecified “disciplinary reasons,” said to involve fighting and bringing bullets to school in his backpack. Math teacher Jim Gard recalled that administrators sent an email warning teachers about Cruz.

“We were told last year that he wasn’t allowed on campus with a backpack on him,” Gard told the Miami Herald. “There were problems with him last year threatening students, and I guess he was asked to leave campus.”

Even the FBI investigated what now appears to be an early warning of the violence to come. Last fall, a YouTube user with the name “nikolas cruz” left a comment on a video posted by Mississippi bail bondsman Ben Bennight: “Im going to be a professional school shooter.” Bennight found the comment so disturbing that in addition to flagging it for removal by YouTube, he took a screenshot and tried to email it to the FBI. When it bounced back, he called the local FBI field office.


quote:
Though plenty of people raised alarms with school officials, police, and federal agents, he had no criminal record, and no record of mental illness that would prevent him from purchasing a gun. Under federal law, someone can be put in to the background-check database if they’ve been involuntarily committed to a mental hospital, or if a government body has declared them mentally incompetent.

Absolutely nothing will be done about any of this. Democrats will make some noise, Republicans will tell them that it is the wrong time to talk about gun control. As if there is ever a right time. And in a few weeks something worse will happen.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19521
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 32 of 909 (828354)
02-16-2018 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
02-15-2018 1:10 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Phat writes:

What if the administrator does not want to have "ability to engage in shootout to protect lives" in their job description? Seems well above my pay grade, anyway.


We need to arm the cashiers at Safeway so they can protect the customers.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3288
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 33 of 909 (828355)
02-16-2018 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
02-16-2018 11:32 AM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Phat writes:

What if the administrator does not want to have "ability to engage in shootout to protect lives" in their job description? Seems well above my pay grade, anyway.


We need to arm the cashiers at Safeway so they can protect the customers.

Armed drones in every classroom, patrolling every hallway, every aisle in Safeway. An overwhelming fire power response at the first sign of "trouble." If it works on the "battlefield" it should be good enough to protect our kids. Ideally, every student would have their own personal protective drones. The more drones we have the safer we will be.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 34 of 909 (828356)
02-16-2018 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tanypteryx
02-16-2018 12:03 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Or just give every teacher an RPG to carry around shock and awe!!

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-16-2018 12:03 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 35 of 909 (828357)
02-16-2018 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by frako
02-16-2018 5:10 AM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Hi frako,

frako writes:

If america started reading the well regulated part it might offer some relief but you have so many guns its doubtful you could keep them from the wrong hands anymore. If i remember right there are more guns in america then there are people.

frako I kind of shy away from this topic but though I would comment here.

The civilian militia is made up of every person 18 and older. That even includes 22 million former military people that are trained.

I raised 2 sons in a house where every gun in the house was loaded at all times. They were exposed to what a gun would do by the time they were 4 years old. They were taught what a gun was for and by the time they were six they could use one. My oldest son killed his first deer when he was 7 years old. The younger son never cared about hunting although he learned how to hunt in case he would need to be able to forge for food.

When it comes to the ar15 it is not the best weapon to cause mass damage. Yet it is the one that is always mentioned.

A shotgun with 4" 00 buckshot shells carrying 15 pellets in each shell would do the most damage. Such a weapon with an improved cylinder bore would cover a 6x6 piece of plywood at 50 yards. Anything in that area would receive a lot of damage. There are shotguns that will handle 8 & 9 shells in a tube magazine. Some take clips like the AR15 with 20 round clips and a drum with 28 rounds.

28 rounds could be fired as fast as you could pull the trigger. Dispensing 420 pellets in less than a minute. A shotgun is a scatter gun that covers a lot of square feet with 1 round fired.

It is estimated that between 50 and 100 million households have a weapon in them. I would think that estimate is very low as there are millions of homes that have weapons that no one knows they are in the home but the owner. It is estimated that there is 22 million military veterans each household would have at least 1 weapon for each person in the house. Just arming the wives would be 44 million armed citizens. If they had 2 married children that were armed that would bring the total to 88 million. So military families their children and grand children would account for over 100 million homes that would be armed. That is almost 1/3 of the us population that is armed. It is estimated that there are 357 million firearms in America.

Now let me get on my soap box for a minute and express my opinion. I believe in God and that one day I will stand before Him and give an account for my life and deeds here on earth. That causes me to have a different worldview that a lot of people as I have to be accountable for my actions. But I am old and was taught a lot different that the youth of today. I was raised to work, mind my manners, speak when spoken too. Have respect for my elders using yes mam and no mam, yes sir, and no sir. I was taught if something was mine I could use it, but if it belonged to someone else I had to ask permission to use it. Most folks today have no respect for themselves or anyone else. No respect for the property of others. Most of the people up to 40 years old have been raised by TV and today it is the cell phone. I dare say more than half of the people in the us are addicted to their cell phone. And that is where they get their news that is usually bogus, like false.

I think we have gone to far to come back to sanity. Due to the fact that about 75 % of the people today have become their own God and they can and do decide what is good and what is evil, and their threshold between the two is at the ceiling therefore it is ok to do whatever they pleases. They make their own rules and there is no consequences.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by frako, posted 02-16-2018 5:10 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 36 of 909 (828359)
02-16-2018 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ICANT
02-16-2018 12:28 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
he civilian militia is made up of every person 18 and older. That even includes 22 million former military people that are trained.

That has not been true for quite a long time. The Constitution defines what the militia is, and as we have discussed here before, federal statute further defines the current militia. The closest thing to a militia that currently exists in most states is the National Guard. A few states have some additional bodies that meet the constitutional requirements.

No, the Militia is not you and the Yancy Street irregulars, despite your desire and willingness to take on federal troops with your collection of pea shooters. It is not 1812 anymore.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 37 of 909 (828360)
02-16-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ICANT
02-16-2018 12:28 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
The civilian militia is made up of every person 18 and older. That even includes 22 million former military people that are trained.

Yea but they where at least trained in firearms a bit, im guessing it worked like it worked in my country everyone gets training after they turn 18 they could push back the trainig if they had excusses like still educating themselves. But the world and america went from that system to having a payed standing army. So if the circumstances changed shouldent the law.

When it comes to the ar15 it is not the best weapon to cause mass damage. Yet it is the one that is always mentioned.

Im just glad that these mass murderers are idiots, it would be relativly simple to cause millions of deaths possibly billions in this day and age if one puts his mind to it. like of the top of my head selling their guns using the money to go to congo, get some fruit bat blood that's infected with the marburg virus, surf facebook instagram... and other sites for adresses of people who work on airports, shopping mals, anything where they have contact with loads of people, infect a bunch of stuff with the virus and send it to those people.

But back on the gun topic i know to me it makes no difference if its a glock or an rpg its still ment to kill people. Hunters dont need automaatic or semi automatic weapons, or even shotguns with the big balls inside, just birdshot.

I think we have gone to far to come back to sanity. Due to the fact that about 75 % of the people today have become their own God and they can and do decide what is good and what is evil, and their threshold between the two is at the ceiling therefore it is ok to do whatever they pleases. They make their own rules and there is no consequences.

Its been that way since the dawn of civilization. Elizabet Bathory used to bleed young virgins to death and bathe in their blood, the servants who had no choice but to help her as she commands got burned at the stake, she got house arrest. Knights of old had an inportant job as ordered by the church, that is to terrorize pesants for they where the descendands of the son who laughed at noa when he was drunk ..... we have a ssaying 100 people 100 wonders 100 women 200 brests. Some people have always been awful, and some people will always be awful.

What we can do about it is to make sure they dont get power, any power like rulling, or pressing a trigger and somebody dies.

Now im not saying our system is perfect, we do have illegal guns comming mostly from the southern border *bit of irony*, but shootings are rare. Because to legaly own a gun you haveto get a mental exam. And have proficiency in using the weapon.

I raised 2 sons in a house where every gun in the house was loaded at all times.

Dunno about america, but gun users here are taught to treat any gun as always loaded, dosent matter if you checked the magazine 5 times and found it empty. It cuts down on idiotic accidents.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8485
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(8)
Message 38 of 909 (828363)
02-16-2018 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ICANT
02-16-2018 12:28 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
ICANT writes:

I raised 2 sons in a house where every gun in the house was loaded at all times.

You obviously have no idea how bizarre, dangerous and really, really stupid that sounds to almost everyone else in the rest of the developed world.

And Christians with guns is even weirder. If that's possible. WWJD?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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Percy
Member
Posts: 20750
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 39 of 909 (828365)
02-16-2018 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by frako
02-16-2018 7:24 AM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
frako writes:

I get it americans love guns, because propaganda tells you you should,...

And apparently the propaganda isn't just from the NRA and gun-nuts. The Russians see the gun issue as yet another avenue for sowing discord here. This is from CNN: Russian bots promote pro-gun messages after Florida school shooting

--Percy


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frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 40 of 909 (828369)
02-16-2018 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Tangle
02-16-2018 2:11 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
I grew up around guns too, 2 of my uncles where hunters, but here you have to keep guns under lock and key. And probably unloaded not sure.

And the hunting part of hunting is actually boring here, either you sit in a blind and pick of the animal you have the permit for or your part of a group hunt thats a bit more interesting where part of the hunting group herds animals in to the line of fire of the other. Tracking and stalking your pray isn't really needed.

I prefere the other part of hunting in my country, counting animals, feeding them in winter and so on.

But that might be my bias i cant hurt mamals, even if i had an animal slaughtered for meat i couldent watch the killing part, after its dead i have no problems. But bizarrely i love to fish.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2018 2:11 PM Tangle has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15935
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 41 of 909 (828371)
02-16-2018 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Tangle
02-16-2018 2:11 PM


WWJD
Tangle writes:

And Christians with guns is even weirder. If that's possible. WWJD?

Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Guns

quote:
From the wit and wisdom of New Testament scholar, David Lincicum:
Blessed are the gunmakers, for they shall be called children of God.
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth, guns among those on whom his favor rests...
Guns I leave you; my guns I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not let them be afraid.
...but glory and honor and guns for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and guns...
For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and guns and joy in the Holy Spirit.
As shoes for your feet put on whatever will make you ready to proclaim the gospel of guns.
Let them turn away from evil and do good; let them seek guns and pursue them.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 42 of 909 (828462)
02-18-2018 2:59 PM


High school student's reaction to Florida Shooting
I am totally blown away by the stories about the high school students from Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School. A number of students have spoken quite eloquently about their governments lack action other than lip service on the issue of school shootings.

Apparently, these kids were not impressed by Trump's "Thumbs UP" photo op, and are expecting, and even demanding that real actions are taken.

http://abcnews.go.com/...ounce-march-washington-demand/story

quote:
Teen survivors of the school shooting massacre in Florida last week are calling for a march on Washington to demand action on gun control.

Student organizers of the protest told ABC News' "This Week" Co-Anchor Martha Raddatz on Sunday that they are determined to use protests and political action to make the mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas in Parkland, Florida, a turning point in the national debate over gun control.


If the students can pull this off, I am going to try my best to participate.

quote:
“People keep asking us, 'What about the Stoneman Douglas shooting is going to be different, because this has happened before and change hasn't come?'” Cameron Kasky, an 11th-grader told Raddatz. “This is it.”

“People are saying that it’s not time to talk about gun control. And we can respect that,” Kasky added. “Here’s a time. March 24th in every single city. We are going to be marching together as students begging for our lives.”


Clearly, these young men and women have been paying attention. Who is down?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Percy, posted 02-18-2018 5:06 PM NoNukes has seen this message

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20750
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 43 of 909 (828466)
02-18-2018 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
02-18-2018 2:59 PM


Re: High school student's reaction to Florida Shooting
NoNukes writes:

http://abcnews.go.com/...ounce-march-washington-demand/story

quote:
Teen survivors of the school shooting massacre in Florida last week are calling for a march on Washington to demand action on gun control.

Student organizers of the protest told ABC News' "This Week" Co-Anchor Martha Raddatz on Sunday that they are determined to use protests and political action to make the mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas in Parkland, Florida, a turning point in the national debate over gun control.


The same kids appeared on all three weekly news shows, This Week, Meet the Press, and Face the Nation. The girl in the upper right (the kids kept the same seats on all the shows), Emma Gonzalez, also spoke at the rally (everyone: you want to watch this one - Emma is an inspiring speaker):

If the students can pull this off, I am going to try my best to participate.

Me too.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by NoNukes, posted 02-18-2018 2:59 PM NoNukes has seen this message

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20750
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 44 of 909 (828524)
02-20-2018 1:59 PM


Poll Finds More Americans are Idiots
From Slate Magazine: More Americans Blame Mass Shootings on Mental Health Than on Gun Laws, New Poll Finds

It will always be the extremely rare case that mental health professionals are able to pre-identify mass murderers. Here's a list of mass murderers in the U.S. from Mass Shooting Perpetrators, find me one who could have been pre-identified:

Edward Charles Allaway, James Edward Pough, Carl Robert Brown, Omar Mateen, Robert A. Hawkins, James Oliver Huberty, Nathan Dunlap, George Hennard, Dylann Roof, Adam Lanza, Nidal Malik Hasan, Charles Whitman, Jeff Weise, Gang Lu, Patrick Sherrill, Barry Loukaitis, Esteban Santiago, Christopher Harper-Mercer, Gian Luigi Ferri, Mark Essex, Scott Evans Dekraai, Steven Kazmierczak, Jennifer San Marco, James Eagan Holmes, Michael McLendon, Jared Lee Loughner, Seung-Hui Cho, Elliot Rodger, Charles Carl Roberts IV, Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, Robert Lewis Dear, Mitchell Johnson and Andrew Golden, Aaron Alexis, Wade Michael Page, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, Patrick Edward Purdy, Gavin Eugene Long, Micah Xavier Johnson, Kyle Aaron Huff, One L. Goh, Stephen Paddock, and Devin Patrick Kelley

As the article says:

quote:
Criminologist James Allen Fox said that most mass murderers do not have a criminal record, or involuntary incarceration at a mental health center, but an article in the New York Times in December 2015 about 15 recent mass shootings found that six perpetrators had had run-ins with law enforcement, and six had mental health issues.

Missing from the list is the most recent mass murderer, Nicholas Cruz, and it is an interesting question whether local law enforcement would have confiscated his gun had the FBI notified them (FBI field offices don't deal with such issues directly, they merely pass on information to local law enforcement). I very much doubt the gun would have been confiscated. As the family with whom Cruz was staying said, he presented as respectful, quiet and obedient, though sad about his mother's death.

Americans belief in the predictive power of psychology is seriously misplaced, as any psychologist will tell you.

--Percy


  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20750
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 45 of 909 (828560)
02-21-2018 7:55 AM


Psychiatrist Agrees Mass Murderers Can't Be Pre-Detected
In her New York Times Opinion piece, The Mental Health System Can’t Stop Mass Shooters psychiatrist Amy Barnhorst describes the difficulties faced by mental health professionals trying to stop mass murderers. Here she describes a man she evaluated:

quote:
A few years ago, the police brought a 21-year-old man into the crisis unit where I work as an emergency psychiatrist. His parents had called the police after seeing postings on his Facebook page that praised the Columbine shooters, referred to imminent death and destruction at his community college and promised his own “Day of Retribution.” His brother reported to the police that he had recently purchased a gun.

When I interviewed the patient, he denied all of this. He had no history of mental illness and said he didn’t want or need any treatment. My job was to evaluate whether he met the criteria to be involuntarily admitted to a psychiatric hospital.
...
I ended up admitting this patient, and he was released by the hearing officer two days later. He never took any medication, never reached the threshold for a federal firearm prohibition and left the hospital in the same state he arrived in. Like so many of his peers, he will not seek out therapy for the longstanding personality traits that seem to predispose him to violence and rage, and there is no way to impose treatment upon him.


In these excerpts she describes the difficulties more generally:

quote:
Mr. Cruz had suffered from depression and was getting counseling at one point. He was also evaluated by emergency mental health workers in 2016, but they decided not to hospitalize him. Why, some critics are demanding, didn’t he receive proper treatment? And can’t we just stop angry, unstable young men like him from buying firearms?

It’s much harder than it sounds.

The mental health system doesn’t identify most of these people because they don’t come in to get care. And even if they do, laws designed to preserve the civil liberties of people with mental illness place limits on what treatments can be imposed against a person’s will.

Here in California, as in most states, patients must be a danger to themselves or others because of mental illness before they can be involuntarily admitted to a psychiatric hospital.


Bottom line: Republican claims about beefing up the mental health care system is a smokescreen for doing nothing about guns.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by NoNukes, posted 02-21-2018 8:36 AM Percy has seen this message

  
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