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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Percy
Member
Posts: 18374
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 752 of 765 (850588)
04-10-2019 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 747 by Faith
04-10-2019 2:16 PM


Re: Sanity Reigns in the Southern Hemisphere
Faith writes:

No American who speaks of any part of our Constitution as archaic and anachronistic deserves to be called rational or sane.

The Second Amendment is as archaic and anachronistic as muskets, slavery, defining slaves as 3/5 of a man, denying women the vote, denying the right to vote to those over 18 but under 21, requiring jury trials in civil suits involving amounts greater than $20, not having the power to tax, prohibiting liquor, and electing the Senate by state legislatures.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by Faith, posted 04-10-2019 2:16 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 753 by Faith, posted 04-10-2019 7:39 PM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30962
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 753 of 765 (850590)
04-10-2019 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 752 by Percy
04-10-2019 5:42 PM


Re: Sanity Reigns in the Southern Hemisphere
In its historical cultural context those things were perfectly rational. And I'm sure you have the 3/5 provision wrong as most people do, preferring to see it as a judgment on the humanity of slaves, but it wasn't. Since they were property they were counted as 3/5 of a person having to do with representation in Congress or something like that. I hope you knew that but I'd bet you didn't. And judging all those other historical facts as irrational just shows your basic ignorance and uninterest in history and cultural context. Another way you are *really* a Leftist.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 752 by Percy, posted 04-10-2019 5:42 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 754 by Theodoric, posted 04-10-2019 7:58 PM Faith has responded
 Message 756 by Percy, posted 04-10-2019 8:21 PM Faith has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6040
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 754 of 765 (850592)
04-10-2019 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 753 by Faith
04-10-2019 7:39 PM


Re: Sanity Reigns in the Southern Hemisphere
And I'm sure you have the 3/5 provision wrong as most people do, preferring to see it as a judgment on the humanity of slaves, but it wasn't. Since they were property they were counted as 3/5 of a person having to do with representation in Congress or something like that.

Your complete lack of understanding or humanity still amazes me. in the first statement you say it was not a judgement on their humanity and in the next you acknowledge they were property. I am sure you do not understand the utter depravity of that, but then again you never will. If there were a hell there would be a special place for the self righteous inhuman Christians like you.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 753 by Faith, posted 04-10-2019 7:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 755 by Faith, posted 04-10-2019 8:15 PM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 757 by Faith, posted 04-10-2019 8:36 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30962
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 755 of 765 (850598)
04-10-2019 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 754 by Theodoric
04-10-2019 7:58 PM


Re: Sanity Reigns in the Southern Hemisphere
Gosh you're not very bright are you? The percentage was a percentage of political representation, not humanity. Duh.

As for treating classes of people as property of course you are SO superior to the vast majority of the human race that has historically kept slaves as property. Duh.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 754 by Theodoric, posted 04-10-2019 7:58 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18374
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 756 of 765 (850601)
04-10-2019 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 753 by Faith
04-10-2019 7:39 PM


Re: Sanity Reigns in the Southern Hemisphere
Focusing just on the parts bearing on factual matters:

Faith writes:

...most people...see it [the 3/5 compromise] as a judgment on the humanity of slaves, but it wasn't.

The 3/5 compromise was rooted in the same belief that made whites feel it was okay to enslave blacks, that they were less than human.

Since they were property they were counted as 3/5 of a person having to do with representation in Congress or something like that.

That's correct - for calculating the number of representatives from a state.

And judging all those other historical facts as irrational just shows your basic ignorance and uninterest in history and cultural context.

I didn't judge those aspects of the original constitution irrational. I called them archaic and anachronistic (you quoted me saying that), which they are.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 753 by Faith, posted 04-10-2019 7:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 758 by Faith, posted 04-10-2019 8:44 PM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30962
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 757 of 765 (850603)
04-10-2019 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 754 by Theodoric
04-10-2019 7:58 PM


Re: Sanity Reigns in the Southern Hemisphere
Ooooooo, talk about yer insults.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 754 by Theodoric, posted 04-10-2019 7:58 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30962
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 758 of 765 (850605)
04-10-2019 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 756 by Percy
04-10-2019 8:21 PM


Re: Sanity Reigns in the Southern Hemisphere
OK I'll give you that but it still needs to be said that the 3/5 was not in itself a judgment of the humanity of slaves which is how it is usually construed.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 756 by Percy, posted 04-10-2019 8:21 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 759 by Percy, posted 04-10-2019 9:16 PM Faith has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18374
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 759 of 765 (850608)
04-10-2019 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 758 by Faith
04-10-2019 8:44 PM


Re: Sanity Reigns in the Southern Hemisphere
Still keeping the focus on factual matters and the topic, my original point was that the 2nd amendment, like other aspects of the constitution, and like the firearms of the day, is archaic and anachronistic today. The 2nd amendment was not written with modern firearms in mind, nor was it interpreted properly by the Supreme Court when they held that the initial clause about a well regulated militia did not modify the clause that followed about the right to keep and bear arms.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 758 by Faith, posted 04-10-2019 8:44 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 760 by Faith, posted 04-11-2019 12:54 PM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30962
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 760 of 765 (850649)
04-11-2019 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 759 by Percy
04-10-2019 9:16 PM


Re: Sanity Reigns in the Southern Hemisphere
You don't get to define the Second Amendment in any sense whatever.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 759 by Percy, posted 04-10-2019 9:16 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 763 by Percy, posted 04-11-2019 1:07 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30962
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 761 of 765 (850653)
04-11-2019 12:57 PM


the white supermacists lying accusation
This conversation has wandered way off track. It started with my pointing out that Trump did not say anything to approve of white supremacists, which is the usual Leftist fake news lie; he only commented that there are many good people on both sides of the question about preserving versus taking down historical memorials in the South. Of course the Leftists had to make a mess of that too.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 762 by PaulK, posted 04-11-2019 1:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14819
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 762 of 765 (850655)
04-11-2019 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 761 by Faith
04-11-2019 12:57 PM


Re: the white supermacists lying accusation
Trump was clearly speaking about the Unite the Right protestors, which included White Supremacists and Nazis. Anyone involved on that side was at the least willing to ally with such people. That’s the point of it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 761 by Faith, posted 04-11-2019 12:57 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18374
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


(5)
Message 763 of 765 (850658)
04-11-2019 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 760 by Faith
04-11-2019 12:54 PM


Re: Sanity Reigns in the Southern Hemisphere
Faith writes:

You don't get to define the Second Amendment in any sense whatever.

I think you meant "interpret" rather than "define", but in any case, it would be helpful to understand your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment:

quote:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Isn't this archaic and anachronistic because it was written when arms meant muskets, when the government didn't provide soldiers their firearms, and when militias actually still existed?

Also, its mention of militias makes clear it has a military context, not a hunting, home defense or any other context.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Fix misspeak: "the government provided" => "the government didn't provide'


This message is a reply to:
 Message 760 by Faith, posted 04-11-2019 12:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 764 by Faith, posted 04-12-2019 6:54 PM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30962
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 764 of 765 (850710)
04-12-2019 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 763 by Percy
04-11-2019 1:07 PM


Re: Sanity Reigns in the Southern Hemisphere
I think I did a pretty good job on *my* interpretation of the Second Amendment on an earlier version of this thread, in Message 57 and I think probably some other posts on that thread as well. I had read up on it before posting there, and here's one paragraph of what I wrote:

"Actually I do know what the founders wanted and it was NOT an organized militia for the very reason that such a body can be used against the people which is the exact opposite of the intent of the amendment. The concept of an armed citizenry goes back to England and possibly other sources long before the second amendment was written, which built on that history. The point was for individual citizens to have the means of self defense. "

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 763 by Percy, posted 04-11-2019 1:07 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 765 by Percy, posted 04-13-2019 10:55 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18374
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 765 of 765 (850717)
04-13-2019 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 764 by Faith
04-12-2019 6:54 PM


Re: Sanity Reigns in the Southern Hemisphere
From Faith's Message 57 in the Gun Control Again thread:

Faith in Message 57 of the Gun Control Again thread writes:

Actually I do know what the founders wanted...

Whether you do or don't, what you say they wanted is not what the 2nd Amendment says.

...and it was NOT an organized militia...

If 2nd Amendment authors were adding an amendment unrelated to "well regulated militias," then why did they mention well regulated militias right up front?

...for the very reason that such a body can be used against the people which is the exact opposite of the intent of the amendment.

If the 2nd Amendment author's intent was to provide an amendment to protect people from militias, then why do they talk about militias in the context of "the security of a free State", of which the people are citizens.

The concept of an armed citizenry goes back to England and possibly other sources long before the second amendment was written, which built on that history. The point was for individual citizens to have the means of self defense.

The 2nd Amendment authors did not see fit to include the self-defense concept in the amendment. What they did include was the need for a "well regulated militia" to defend "the security of the free State," and well regulated militias, given that governments did not provide firearms at the time, need to draw upon a population of men with firearms.

But regardless of how anyone interprets the 2nd Amendment, clearly it is archaic and anachronistic and doesn't serve the needs of today. Guns are more often used against family, friends and oneself than against criminals, and eliminating guns would reduce the overall firearm death rate.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by Faith, posted 04-12-2019 6:54 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
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