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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4502
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 767 of 834 (851684)
04-30-2019 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 766 by Percy
04-30-2019 9:36 AM


Re: Here's a Perfect Example Why People Should Not Have Guns
So often the children. Very sad.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by Percy, posted 04-30-2019 9:36 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4502
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 768 of 834 (851830)
05-02-2019 10:38 PM


Republicans are not sane.

Florida to allow teachers to carry guns in classrooms


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12782
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 769 of 834 (852194)
05-08-2019 10:34 AM


Not In My backyard!
1 Student Killed, 8 Injured In Colorado School Shooting

This one was in my backyard. Whose backyard will the next one be in? And as a Christian, I ask myself if these shootings are a symptom of a society on a collision course with sober reality and if we have any secular solutions apart from the beliefs which I have.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 770 of 834 (852362)
05-09-2019 2:00 PM


We Need Fewer Guns
"America now has more guns than people," says Nicholas Kristof in his May 8th opinion piece (We Have 2 Dead Young Heroes. It’s Time to Stand Up to Guns.). But we knew this already. We didn't need to be reminded again that America has far too many guns.

But did we know that those who put themselves on the frontlines of keeping our society safe, the police, are killed less often than children under five? That "in a typical year, more American children ages 4 and younger die from firearms (110 in 2016) than police officers do in the line of duty (65 in 2016)." How could this be that those who purposefully place themselves in the line of fire die less often than young children?

Part of the answer is numbers. There are maybe abound 5 million children under 5 and only about a million police. But children aren't riding around in patrol cars packing guns with partners also packing guns and rushing to crime scenes and confronting dangerous armed men. Children are at home or at school or riding in a supermarket cart or at a park or at McDonalds. What could explain the deaths by firearm of so many young children?

I'm not aware of studies that have broken this down, but the answer doesn't take deep thought. Too many American homes have guns. Accidents, apathy, anger and angst happen, and if they happen when a gun is present then the result can be far more deadly.

We need to reduce the number of guns.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 771 by ringo, posted 05-09-2019 2:18 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17272
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 771 of 834 (852363)
05-09-2019 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 770 by Percy
05-09-2019 2:00 PM


Re: We Need Fewer Guns
Percy writes:

How could this be that those who purposefully place themselves in the line of fire die less often than young children?


One possible argument (which the gun nuts might not be comfortable using) is that criminals are better at gun safety than the average parent.

Hippopotamus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 770 by Percy, posted 05-09-2019 2:00 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 772 by Theodoric, posted 05-09-2019 2:41 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6551
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 772 of 834 (852365)
05-09-2019 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 771 by ringo
05-09-2019 2:18 PM


Re: We Need Fewer Guns
I have no doubt that that is true

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 771 by ringo, posted 05-09-2019 2:18 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 773 of 834 (852669)
05-15-2019 11:37 AM


Is a lifetime of due diligence even possible?
Speculating a bit, let's say you've been a gun enthusiast all your life. In your 20's and 30's and 40's you took training and retraining courses, you went to the practice range several times a week, you familiarized yourself with your firearms so intimately that you could disassemble and reassemble them in less than five minutes blindfolded. Sure, you ignored the part of the training about keeping your firearms and ammunition locked up separately, but that was out of necessity. What good is a gun for self defense if it's locked away?

But putting a gun in a nightstand or in your car was obviously dangerous, so you went with concealed carry, even around the house. It was inconvenient and hot to always wear enough clothes to keep the gun concealed, but self defense is essential, and so you did it.

But time goes by and you get older and less passionate about guns. You no longer take training courses or go to gun shows. Wearing extra clothing on hot days becomes more and more uncomfortable, even just a short sleeved vest. You begin slipping the gun into your nightstand or under the seat of your car. More time goes by, you get older and forgetful, and eventually you forget about the gun altogether. It winds up under the seat of your vintage World War II jeep.

Now let's get to the facts I know.

Now you're 76. One day for a widely attended baseball game in Millington, Tennessee, you display your jeep outside the stadium. A boy playing in the jeep finds the gun, thinks it's a toy, and shoots his mother, who is in the hospital in critical condition. You are arrested and charged with reckless endangerment with a deadly weapon.

Source: 8-year-old boy accidentally shoots mother at baseball game, gun owner charged

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 774 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-15-2019 9:29 PM Percy has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5800
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 774 of 834 (852700)
05-15-2019 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 773 by Percy
05-15-2019 11:37 AM


Re: Is a lifetime of due diligence even possible?
peculating a bit, let's say you've been a gun enthusiast all your life. In your 20's and 30's and 40's you took training and retraining courses, you went to the practice range several times a week, you familiarized yourself with your firearms so intimately that you could disassemble and reassemble them in less than five minutes blindfolded. Sure, you ignored the part of the training about keeping your firearms and ammunition locked up separately, but that was out of necessity. What good is a gun for self defense if it's locked away?
But putting a gun in a nightstand or in your car was obviously dangerous, so you went with concealed carry, even around the house. It was inconvenient and hot to always wear enough clothes to keep the gun concealed, but self defense is essential, and so you did it.

But time goes by and you get older and less passionate about guns. You no longer take training courses or go to gun shows. Wearing extra clothing on hot days becomes more and more uncomfortable, even just a short sleeved vest. You begin slipping the gun into your nightstand or under the seat of your car. More time goes by, you get older and forgetful, and eventually you forget about the gun altogether. It winds up under the seat of your vintage World War II jeep.

Now let's get to the facts I know.

Now you're 76. One day for a widely attended baseball game in Millington, Tennessee, you display your jeep outside the stadium. A boy playing in the jeep finds the gun, thinks it's a toy, and shoots his mother, who is in the hospital in critical condition. You are arrested and charged with reckless endangerment with a deadly weapon.

Source: 8-year-old boy accidentally shoots mother at baseball game, gun owner charged

Then you go to prison for Making Firearm Accessible To A Child. It is the gun owner's responsibility and if found grossly negligent, you will pay the price... on top of a stinging conscience for the rest of your life.

But then, a similar question could also be posited.... When you were younger you used to be enthusiastic and up to date with guns. But you're older now and enough time has passed where there's never been a reason to ever use it. As a result, you become complacent and you carry it less and less... lulled by the days where nothing has ever happened. Eventually you lock it away and no longer give it much thought. One night, as night falls, you hear a crash on the front door. Your home is being invaded by the depraved and unrepentant of this world. Your entire family is massacred before your eyes. You were their protector and you failed. The only reason you ever bought the damn thing was as an insurance policy from this very scenario that, while remote, is always a possibility. And on the big day, you failed and people are now dead... the wrong people, as a matter of fact.

And that sting of conscience is with this person too...

For every hypothetical scenario, there is its counterpart waiting in the wing. There's a multitude of ways people can make bad choices in life - choices that may rock the very foundations of their being.

Complacency is a son of a bitch... Why put my seatbelt on? The store is literally .3 miles away. I've driven this route 5,000 times with my seatbelt on and nothing has happened.

But I guess your point is that we should all stop driving cars because its next to impossible to vigilant your entire life. That is what you're trying to say, right?

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 773 by Percy, posted 05-15-2019 11:37 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 775 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2019 12:09 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 776 by Percy, posted 05-16-2019 9:13 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15370
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 775 of 834 (852702)
05-16-2019 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 774 by Hyroglyphx
05-15-2019 9:29 PM


Re: Is a lifetime of due diligence even possible?
quote:

For every hypothetical scenario, there is its counterpart waiting in the wing.

Percy’s scenario wasn’t hypothetical. As is quite obvious if you read his post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 774 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-15-2019 9:29 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 777 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-16-2019 10:40 AM PaulK has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 776 of 834 (852716)
05-16-2019 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 774 by Hyroglyphx
05-15-2019 9:29 PM


Re: Is a lifetime of due diligence even possible?
Hyroglyphx writes:

Then you go to prison for Making Firearm Accessible To A Child. It is the gun owner's responsibility and if found grossly negligent, you will pay the price... on top of a stinging conscience for the rest of your life.

I'm sure this is a great comfort to the family of the critically injured mother.

But then, a similar question could also be posited...etc...

As has been pointed out many times in this thread, guns are more likely to be used against family, friends and others nearby than against criminals.

For every hypothetical scenario,...

That a mother was critically injured by her son with a gun hidden under the seat of a vintage World War II jeep is not hypothetical. Here's the news story again: 8-year-old boy accidentally shoots mother at baseball game, gun owner charged

But I guess your point is that we should all stop driving cars because its next to impossible to vigilant your entire life. That is what you're trying to say, right?

Oh, for sure, you're right on, that's exactly what I was trying to say. And we should stop using knives and nail guns and lawn mowers and paper shredders, too.

Here's how vehicle deaths per million vehicle traveled have declined year by year (red line):

Vehicle deaths will continue to decline as manufacturers, encouraged by government, continue to work hard at improving vehicle safety. Crash avoidance systems that are becoming increasingly available should make a big contribution.

By contrast gun manufacturers are working hard to make guns more and more deadly. Here's how gun deaths have increased year over year:

Today's news contained no updates about the mother's condition.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 774 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-15-2019 9:29 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 778 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-16-2019 10:59 AM Percy has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5800
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 777 of 834 (852719)
05-16-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 775 by PaulK
05-16-2019 12:09 AM


Re: Is a lifetime of due diligence even possible?
Percy’s scenario wasn’t hypothetical. As is quite obvious if you read his post.

And neither are murders. My point, which was "quite obvious" if you read it, was that any good argument has a counter-argument. And we can "what-if" something to death. The fundamental question is should an idiot's actions get to dictate mine? The answer is no


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 775 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2019 12:09 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 780 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2019 11:35 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 788 by Percy, posted 05-16-2019 1:23 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5800
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 778 of 834 (852720)
05-16-2019 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 776 by Percy
05-16-2019 9:13 AM


Re: Is a lifetime of due diligence even possible?
I'm sure this is a great comfort to the family of the critically injured mother.

Laws on murder are little consolation to family members affected by it. Seems like you just want a world where bad things never happen. A wonderful ideal, yes, but plausible? No.

As has been pointed out many times in this thread, guns are more likely to be used against family, friends and others nearby than against criminals.

Correction. Guns are more likely to NEVER be used at all. But then, insurance is more likely to never be used at all... which is why being in the insurance business is profitable. But it sure is nice to have when its needed.

That a mother was critically injured by her son with a gun hidden under the seat of a vintage World War II jeep is not hypothetical. Here's the news story again: 8-year-old boy accidentally shoots mother at baseball game, gun owner charged

The hypothetical I'm referring to is the argument you're posing as a result of your real-world example. Because of X, Y happened as a result. Therefore get rid of X so that Y cannot happen. And I'm saying get rid of X and P becomes the new variable. And on and on and on... In feudal China the government outlawed private ownership of swords. The populace then started using a threshing tool, the Nunchuck, as weapon. It used to be a tool to knock the heads of grain from the stalks. In the absence of an ability to defend themselves, the people then weaponized the benign tool. Of course, people are killed by planks of wood, rakes, sticks, etc.... prisons demonstrate no limits of human ingenuity, fashioning weapons from even cellophane wrappers under heat. The point being that your real enemy is the human itself with a mind for malice. That's always been and always will be the actual issue that needs to be addressed. You think that changing externalities will change internalities. I don't.

Vehicle deaths will continue to decline as manufacturers, encouraged by government, continue to work hard at improving vehicle safety. Crash avoidance systems that are becoming increasingly available should make a big contribution.
By contrast gun manufacturers are working hard to make guns more and more deadly. Here's how gun deaths have increased year over year

Guns are designed to be lethal so, yeah, go figure that the aim is to increase their lethality. Cars are not designed to be dangerous and there is an incentive to make them less dangerous... but they still are dangerous, is the point. Its one giant argument of utility. Is the risk worth the reward?

I do find it ironic that you choose to live in a state that probably sets the gold standard for gun ownership rights. I think maybe you should move to Illinois which is heavily restrictive... its obvious their laws are working. New Hampshire is just too dangerous with all of their lax gun laws. I hear Chicago is lovely, especially this time of year.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 776 by Percy, posted 05-16-2019 9:13 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 779 by Theodoric, posted 05-16-2019 11:31 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 781 by ringo, posted 05-16-2019 11:43 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 790 by Percy, posted 05-16-2019 2:02 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6551
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 779 of 834 (852721)
05-16-2019 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 778 by Hyroglyphx
05-16-2019 10:59 AM


Re: Is a lifetime of due diligence even possible?
Correction. Guns are more likely to NEVER be used at all.

No. Wrong. That is not a correction. That is a different and irrelevant, to Percy's statement, data point. Cars are likely to never be involved in a major accident, but we still legislate safety controls in case they are.

which is why being in the insurance business is profitable. But it sure is nice to have when its needed.

But we can not require gun owners to have liability insurance? Kind of hurting your own argument with that statement.

I do find it ironic that you choose to live in a state that probably sets the gold standard for gun ownership rights. I think maybe you should move to Illinois which is heavily restrictive... its obvious their laws are working. New Hampshire is just too dangerous with all of their lax gun laws. I hear Chicago is lovely, especially this time of year.

That your argument has no validity is shown by the continuing trotting out of this widely debunked and discredited argument. The gun laws in IL are not prohibitively restrictive.
State lines do not stop guns. WI and IN have very lax gun laws.
Comparing Chicago to New Hampshire is never a legitimate argument.
https://www.npr.org/...hicago-proof-that-gun-laws-don-t-work

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 778 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-16-2019 10:59 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 782 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-16-2019 12:17 PM Theodoric has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15370
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 780 of 834 (852722)
05-16-2019 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 777 by Hyroglyphx
05-16-2019 10:40 AM


Re: Is a lifetime of due diligence even possible?
quote:

And neither are murders

Which doesn’t change the point. You tried to answer a real story with a contrived hypothetical scenario.

quote:

My point, which was "quite obvious" if you read it, was that any good argument has a counter-argument.

No, it certainly isn’t obvious that that was your point. You know I was willing to believe you didn’t read Percy’s post carefully and simply assumed that he was talking hypothetically. And apologising for that mistake would have been a good response. This is just digging yourself deeper.

quote:

And we can "what-if" something to death


Percy’s story wasn’t a “what-if”.

quote:

The fundamental question is should an idiot's actions get to dictate mine? The answer is no


And I am sure that many people who left guns lying around would ask the same question to justify keeping their guns.

The real question is what benefits does gun ownership offer society to offset the cost. I don’t see that we lost anything worth having here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 777 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-16-2019 10:40 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 783 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-16-2019 12:34 PM PaulK has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17272
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 781 of 834 (852725)
05-16-2019 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 778 by Hyroglyphx
05-16-2019 10:59 AM


Re: Is a lifetime of due diligence even possible?
Hyroglyphx writes:

But then, insurance is more likely to never be used at all... which is why being in the insurance business is profitable. But it sure is nice to have when its needed.


The flaw in that analogy being that insurance is less likely to kill your children.

Welcome back, Faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 778 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-16-2019 10:59 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 784 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-16-2019 12:36 PM ringo has responded

  
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