Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 83 (8942 total)
30 online now:
Heathen, jar, nano, PaulK, Pressie (5 members, 25 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: John Sullivan
Upcoming Birthdays: Anish
Post Volume: Total: 863,366 Year: 18,402/19,786 Month: 822/1,705 Week: 74/518 Day: 0/74 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Percy
Member
Posts: 18867
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 812 of 834 (853027)
05-21-2019 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 809 by Hyroglyphx
05-21-2019 2:49 PM


Re: Is a lifetime of due diligence even possible?
Hyroglyphx writes:

Get rid of the guns.

I'd love to hear how you propose disarming a nation of over 350 million gun-toting citizens...

Current US population is 328.9 million, not "over 350 million."

Many people own multiple guns, which of course you knew, so there cannot possibly be "350 million gun-toting citizens." Only about 1/3 of US households have a gun, so most people do not even have access to a gun. Of those who do a great many are not "toting" them around, not counting those who are hunting.

...deeply ingrained in the 2nd Amendment...

According to the Gallup poll from last year, about 60% of Americans support stricter gun control. About 20% of Americans want the 2nd Amendment repealed.

...that, statistically, own twice as many guns as there are people....

As of a year ago there were about 393 firearms in the United States, so there are about 1.2 guns/person.

...oh, and all with a police force that you disarmed.

And that's wrong, too. You managed to get through an entire paragraph without saying a single correct thing, as well as going around in circles asking the same questions that have been asked and answered before. Since you've forgotten the answer I'll repeat it: I don't know how we get from where we are to where we eventually have to be, but some places to start are registration of all firearms, licensing of all firearm users, training requirements, and home safety inspections (particularly of homes with children).

Maybe this concept is lost on you, but the very people that choose professions involving firearms (military, police, etc) where do you think they land on the socio-political spectrum when it comes to private ownership of guns?

Is there even a concept in there for someone to lose? Could you be more cryptic, perhaps?

You can write whatever laws you want, Percy, but without someone like me in the trenches enforcing those laws, they're useless in practical terms.

What is it you do in your trench? You've never told us, just that you're not a policeman.

Will try to get the rest of your premises when time permits.

Popping in with little time is killing your accuracy, and spending little time here is causing you to forget that most of what you're saying you've said before, and people have answered it before. I'm not saying you should spend more time here or that you should respond more promptly, just that your current approach isn't working for you.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 809 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-21-2019 2:49 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18867
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 813 of 834 (853028)
05-21-2019 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 810 by Taq
05-21-2019 4:57 PM


Re: Is a lifetime of due diligence even possible?
Taq writes:

By that same logic, we should throw out every law since almost every law has been broken. We have laws against murder, but people still commit murder, so let's get rid of that law. People still steal stuff even though it is against the law, so let's get rid of it.

Does this make much sense to you?

He's made this argument before, its idiocy has been pointed out before, but he keeps repeating it anyway.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 810 by Taq, posted 05-21-2019 4:57 PM Taq has not yet responded

    
vimesey
Member
Posts: 997
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 814 of 834 (859882)
08-04-2019 3:19 AM


My condolences, once again, for the latest mass shooting.

My prediction for the responses from the right wing:

1. Thoughts and prayers for the victims (at least they'll say there are - there won't be many in practice).

2. Allow a brief period of time for the calls for gun control to be made, without shouting them down too early, to avoid appearing too insensitive.

3. Against every iota of logic, sanity and reason, argue that what is needed is for every citizen to be armed to the teeth with assault weapons so as to "prevent this happening again".

4. Pretend it is only the clinically insane who could ever be tempted to pull the trigger on a gun out of anger.

5. Not worry about this one too much, because hey, they were mainly Hispanic people who were killed.

I would put some money on the above, but I'm guessing no one will give me decent odds.

Update : 2 mass shootings in the space of 24 hours - has that happened before ?

Edited by vimesey, : Even sadder.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18867
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 815 of 834 (859883)
08-04-2019 6:34 AM


Double Insanity
As Vimesey reports, there were two mass shootings in the past 24 hours.

Saturday morning at a crowed Walmart in El Paso, Texas, a gunmen opened fire, killing 20 and injuring 26, some with life threatening injuries. The shooter was taken into custody:

Mass Shooting in Texas

And early Sunday morning at a bar in Dayton, Ohio, 9 people were killed and 16 people injured. The shooter was also killed, details are sketchy at this time:

Mass Shooting in Ohio

It's time we instituted reasonable measures to end mass shootings:

  • All citizens must be armed at all times, including children, especially children, because they are our future.
    Babies will be issued tiny Derringers.

  • Schools and churches will be gun-required zones, right down to kindergarten and nursery school. In the interest of teacher safety homework and book reports will be outlawed.

  • Citizens will be required to open carry their weapons, so that they are ready for instant response.

  • All weapons will be required to be fully automatic with a minimum firing rate of 10 rounds/second.

  • Any citizen discovered to have not fired their weapon at least ten times during a mass shooting will be deported to Mexico.

  • All ammunition will be required to be highly deadly hollow points like this:

  • It will be illegal for any non-pure American to own or carry a firearm or to remain in the country. DNA tests will establish who stays and who goes. Those failing the test will be deported to Mexico. Naturalized American citizens, green cards, visas, 10% Irish, doesn't matter. They all go. When they're all gone then Chief You-Can-Stick-Your-Reservation will turn out the lights.

  • Police will perform house-to-house checks making sure that all occupants are armed and that no guns or ammunition are in lockboxes. Guns must be placed at strategic locations around the house best positioned for home defense.

  • Any citizen caught unarmed will be deported to Mexico.

  • A special court will be opened to handle all firearm cases. It will have one judge with a rubber stamp.

  • All guns must be cocked and ready to fire. The phrase "locked and loaded" will be replaced with "cocked and loaded."

Finally we'll be safe in this country.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : A couple more.

Edited by Percy, : Typo.


Replies to this message:
 Message 816 by AZPaul3, posted 08-04-2019 8:16 AM Percy has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4630
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 816 of 834 (859886)
08-04-2019 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 815 by Percy
08-04-2019 6:34 AM


Re: Double Insanity
Have we forgotten Gilroy already?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 815 by Percy, posted 08-04-2019 6:34 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 817 by Percy, posted 08-04-2019 8:45 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18867
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 817 of 834 (859889)
08-04-2019 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 816 by AZPaul3
08-04-2019 8:16 AM


Re: Double Insanity
The Garlic Festival shooting has been a massive coverup by the liberal media. It was actually one of the most successful examples of what an armed citizenry can achieve in our country's history. The reality is that the gunman pulled out his gun but didn't get off a single shot before festival attendees dropped their garlic laden burdens, pulled out their guns, and unleashed a fusillade that stopped the gunman in his tracks. Yes, there was some collateral damage.

More seriously, I was tied up when Gilroy happened, was hoping someone else would mention it, thanks.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by AZPaul3, posted 08-04-2019 8:16 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18867
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 818 of 834 (860698)
08-10-2019 7:44 AM


How Seriously Do People Really Take the 2nd Amendment
Okay, gun nuts, here's a quandary for you. Yesterday an Armed Man was Arrested in a Walmart in Springfield, Missouri, for carrying a loaded rifle, a handgun, and a hundred rounds of ammunition while wearing body armor. Green County Prosecuting Attorney Dan Patterson said:

quote:
“Missouri protects the right of people to open carry a firearm, but that does not allow an individual to act in a reckless and criminal manner endangering other citizens.”

My question: What law did Dmitriy Andreychenko break? Missouri is an open carry state (it does have restrictions, like schools and polling places, and private businesses can also ban guns). Walmart sells guns and so of course it's fine to open carry inside Walmart in Missouri. This means that Andreychenko carrying a handgun on his hip was legal, carrying a rifle was legal, carrying ammunition was legal, and wearing body armor was legal. He wasn't behaving in a menacing or threatening way. He was just walking through Walmart while making a cellphone video of himself.

Andreychenko was arrested for making a terrorist threat. I think that as long as he has a lawyer who is one level of competence up from a public defender (I'm not attacking public defenders, it's just that they have too many cases and too little time to be effective in non-trivial cases) that he shouldn't have any trouble getting off. And if he doesn't then the ACLU should take up his case. It would be interesting to see this gun control case go to the Supreme Court.

It's nice to know that the good citizens of open-carry Missouri still have their wits about them and see armed men as dangerous. They might want to reconsider their open carry laws. Asserting your 2nd amendment rights in the abstract is one thing, but encountering an unknown armed man while just out and about on your daily errands is quite another. Allowing armed civilians assumes that they're responsible and sane and have good judgment, but we know this isn't true of everyone, and it is nonsense to think that people can make accurate on-the-spot decisions about everyone who is armed just by their superficial appearance.

What this Walmart incident shows is that even people in open-carry states know how dangerous guns are. They obviously feel strongly about the right to carry their firearms with them, but when it comes right down to it they also feel strongly about feeling safe, and this incident shows that they understand that guns do not make them more safe. No one in that Walmart felt reassured as Andreychenko patrolled the aisles. Missourians, and people in many other states, have to start making sane decisions about whether guns really make them safer.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 819 by Chiroptera, posted 08-10-2019 8:48 AM Percy has responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6802
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 819 of 834 (860700)
08-10-2019 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 818 by Percy
08-10-2019 7:44 AM


Re: How Seriously Do People Really Take the 2nd Amendment
I don't wan't to derail the topics here, but:

And if he doesn't then the ACLU should take up his case.

I doubt the ACLU would take the case. The positition of the ACLU seems to be that the Second Amendment does not grant an individual right to carry fire arms.

The ACLU and the Second Amendment

-

Added by edit

Unless Andreychenko was treated in an arbitrarily unfair manner compared to other individuals in a similar situation. Then that would be a Fourteenth Amendment violation, which might interest the ACLU.

Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.


It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn't know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 818 by Percy, posted 08-10-2019 7:44 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 820 by Percy, posted 08-10-2019 10:52 AM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18867
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 820 of 834 (860708)
08-10-2019 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 819 by Chiroptera
08-10-2019 8:48 AM


Re: How Seriously Do People Really Take the 2nd Amendment
Yeah, I know all that, but I think the ACLU would like the case because it would force Missouri to defend the position that open carry doesn't really mean open carry. The end result could be stricter open carry laws in Missouri, which would be a good thing from the ACLU's perspective.

Missouri's gun laws are contradictory. This is a summary of Missouri's open carry law from the Giffords Law Center:

quote:
No statutes in Missouri specifically prohibit the open carrying of firearms, and it specifically authorizes any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement, and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense. No person may exhibit any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner in the presence of one or more persons.

More briefly, no statute prohibits open carry. Only people with a "valid concealed carry endorsement" who are "carrying a firearm in a concealed manner" are restricted in how openly they can display their firearms. Andreychenko was openly carrying and so didn't need to follow the concealed carry laws.

Because of this lack of any open carry laws that would provide some specificity of what's allowed and what isn't, Andreychenko was arrested on terrorism charges. But I've been searching the Missouri statutes and have found no law specifically addressing the commission of terrorism. The closest is the Forcible entry and detainer defined:

quote:
   534.020. Forcible entry and detainer defined. — If any person shall enter upon or into any lands, tenements or other possessions, with force or strong hand, or with weapons, or by breaking open the doors or windows or other parts of a house, whether any person be in it or not, or by threatening to kill, maim or beat the party in possession, or by such words or actions as have a natural tendency to excite fear or apprehension of danger, or by putting out of doors or carrying away the goods of the party in possession, or by entering peaceably and then turning out by force, or frightening, by threats or other circumstances of terror, the party out of possession, and detain and hold the same in every such case, the person so offending shall be deemed guilty of a "forcible entry and detainer" within the meaning of this chapter.

I don't think this is going to work well in court against someone who walked through the open doors of a Walmart in an open carry state.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 819 by Chiroptera, posted 08-10-2019 8:48 AM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

    
a servant of Christ
Inactive Member


Message 821 of 834 (860729)
08-10-2019 9:24 PM


the pro-gun people have compelling arguments. i'm just sick of cowards killing people so easily. take the guns away. we don't deserve them.

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18867
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 822 of 834 (861794)
08-27-2019 7:37 AM


Think you're safer with a gun in the house? Think again.
Sunday night a 35-year old Florida man shot and killed his 36-year old wife, his 61-year old mother in law, a 3-year old daughter, then himself. Left alive was the daughter's twin. Pablo Colon Jr., 35, had been living in the house with his family for the past six months. After reports a SWAT team stormed the house and found the bodies. A handgun was found in the house.

This is why having a gun in the house makes you less safe, because the odds of an accident or someone going crazy or becoming depressed or angry are much greater than the odds of a criminal invading the home and murdering people.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 823 by vimesey, posted 08-27-2019 9:04 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
vimesey
Member
Posts: 997
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 823 of 834 (861797)
08-27-2019 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 822 by Percy
08-27-2019 7:37 AM


Re: Think you're safer with a gun in the house? Think again.
Very true. But then you get the flawed reasoning of "yeah, but that's them other folks who are mentally ill - that's not me and my family." The NRA knows how to package for that audience, sadly.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 822 by Percy, posted 08-27-2019 7:37 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
a servant of Christ
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 824 of 834 (861904)
08-28-2019 11:23 PM


we live in an era where thoughts and prayers mean nothing

but if these people were taught to cup their hands instead of jiggling triggers, we wouldn't be in this crisis.

none of these shooters know Christ.

yet we blame prozac and video games and mental illness.

why aren't all mentally ill people killing others?

the animus in our souls to harm others is destroyed in the Love of Christ.

we can't say these shooters needed Christ. too un-PC.

but in this unbelieving generation i will scream it from the rooftop.

we are more than a collection of molecules that biological evolution says you are.

we are God breathed. and if we believed that, no one would be jiggling triggers.

Christ is in the midst of every chaos and every crisis, and to mock the people who call out to the Son in lieu of tragedy, you are a despicable miscreant.

maybe you really are descended from a common ancestor that looks more or less like an ape. if you want to descend to condescension when people are trying to pray.

where did prayer come from if God is not real? uncreated, then why do we feign to a Creator, every human culture that exists worships something.

mine's the Son of God. with his Blessed Mother, all the angels and saints and martyrs, and, well, let me catch my god breathed breath.

Edited by a servant of Christ, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 825 by Theodoric, posted 08-29-2019 11:41 AM a servant of Christ has not yet responded
 Message 826 by ringo, posted 08-29-2019 12:13 PM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6653
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 825 of 834 (861918)
08-29-2019 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 824 by a servant of Christ
08-28-2019 11:23 PM


Off topic
Please preach elsewhere.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 824 by a servant of Christ, posted 08-28-2019 11:23 PM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17394
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 826 of 834 (861923)
08-29-2019 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 824 by a servant of Christ
08-28-2019 11:23 PM


a servant of Christ writes:

why aren't all mentally ill people killing others?


For the same reason that all physically ill people don't limp: different illnesses have different symptoms.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 824 by a servant of Christ, posted 08-28-2019 11:23 PM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019