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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 857 of 905 (886214)
05-10-2021 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 855 by Phat
05-10-2021 3:36 PM


Re: Big Guns
Phat writes:

I know how you want to argue that no guns should be banned, but explain to us why a 9mm couldn't achieve the same level of whatever it is you wanted from a gun?

Actually a 9mm can do as much damage as an AR-15. The stories as usual are simply written to be sensational and reality be damned.

Long barreled weapons will be more powerful than short barreled weapons but that is not limited to the AR-15 platform.

And the reality is that long barreled weapons are simply not used in many instances at all.

I'm not opposed to restriction if they are actually based on evidence or even reasoned argument but so far those two factors seem pretty much absent.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 855 by Phat, posted 05-10-2021 3:36 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 864 by Percy, posted 05-11-2021 9:59 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15609
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 858 of 905 (886215)
05-10-2021 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 850 by Percy
05-10-2021 7:21 AM


News From Colorado
I checked the local news for the latest info about that Colorado Springs shooting. It took me awhile to find it as there were at least two and maybe as many as three other shootings locally that had happened since then. Turns out the shooter, known only as "Junior" always carried a handgun and was described by others as "nothing unusual about him".

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 850 by Percy, posted 05-10-2021 7:21 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 859 by Tangle, posted 05-11-2021 1:45 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8202
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 859 of 905 (886217)
05-11-2021 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 858 by Phat
05-10-2021 7:24 PM


Re: News From Colorado
'Nothing unusual' about carrying a handgun. What a fucked up country you guys live in.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 858 by Phat, posted 05-10-2021 7:24 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 861 by dwise1, posted 05-11-2021 8:56 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20254
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 860 of 905 (886219)
05-11-2021 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 854 by jar
05-10-2021 11:54 AM


Re: Big Guns
Aw, did I say mean things about your little precious?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 854 by jar, posted 05-10-2021 11:54 AM jar has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4703
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 861 of 905 (886220)
05-11-2021 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 859 by Tangle
05-11-2021 1:45 AM


Re: News From Colorado
It varies from state to state since most gun laws are state laws.

The entire gun issue has also been heavily politicized, especially by the National Rifle Association (NRA -- which is not doing as well now that it has lost its Russian funding).

But in my opinion the really fucked up aspect are the open-carry laws. One female friend posted a photo of a guy buying groceries wearing a gun belt with holstered sidearms on either side and other handguns strapped to his legs and ankles. This was how he walks around in his daily business! She was trying to imagine how freakishly small his penis must be to drive him to over-compensate so drastically.

One aspect of open-carry is that in some open-carry states you can not long visibly carry handguns, but also long guns (eg, rifles, assault rifles -- see Open carry in the US). I seem to recall that one recent mass shooting in a supermarket where the shooter walked in openly carrying his assault rifle and then opened fire. The thing is that openly and visibly carrying an assault rifle into a store is completely legal in that state (Colorado, I seem to recall), so anyone observing him walking from his car to the store with an assault rifle would not raise any alarms (it is not allowed in New York, Illinois, Tennessee, Florida, Hawaii, Puerto Rico and other territories). In such a situation, you do not know that you are in mortal danger until he opens fire; because of the open carry laws you literally cannot see it coming.

Interestingly, California's stricter gun laws date back to the late 1960's under Republican rule (I think Reagan was Governor at the time). All it took was the publication of photographs of heavily armed Black Panthers.

As you said, fucked up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 859 by Tangle, posted 05-11-2021 1:45 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 863 by Percy, posted 05-11-2021 9:37 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20254
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 862 of 905 (886221)
05-11-2021 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 853 by PaulK
05-10-2021 8:52 AM


Re: Big Guns
PaulK writes:

Or he shot them in the head after they were down. We just don’t know.

But we know much more than nothing, and while your scenario is possible, it is far from most likely. The 100% fatality rate is most easily achieved with an AR-15 style weapon, as we know from past mass shootings where it is very often the weapon of choice. We also know this style is very, very popular, so just statistically it is very likely.

The police are releasing very few details, but another likelihood is that if all the victims were shot in the head that that is heinous enough to have already leaked out.

If you were only arguing that we should postpone final judgment about the weapon used then I would agree with you. Arguing that "we just don't know" as if our ignorance were too great to draw inferences doesn't hold up.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 853 by PaulK, posted 05-10-2021 8:52 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20254
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 863 of 905 (886222)
05-11-2021 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 861 by dwise1
05-11-2021 8:56 AM


Re: News From Colorado
dwise1 writes:

In such a situation, you do not know that you are in mortal danger until he opens fire; because of the open carry laws you literally cannot see it coming.

My standard operating procedure is to leave the vicinity whenever a gun is visible. For example, we were dining at a sidewalk cafe recently when a patrol officer strolled by and then lingered to chat with a couple patrons. We decided it was time to visit the restrooms. I have no answer for concealed weapons.

I know I'm more cautious than your average person. For example, I was completely alone in wearing a mask in the supermarket for a few weeks a year ago March when even the CDC and WHO and Dr. Fauci were saying that if you weren't sick they wouldn't do any good. The mask I wore, then and now, was an N95. The advice at one time was that the general public didn't need N95's, but that was also revealed to be false (it didn't take a genius to figure this out - the information about aerosols has been around a while) and the advice changed to double mask or, if you could find them, wear an N95.

My actions are driven by a desire to keep risk to a minimum with as little disruption to normal life as possible. What action and whether action is necessary at all is part of an equation that can only be approximate as I balance level of threat against the degree of effort necessary to neutralize or reduce it. The presence of a gun increases the possibility of injury or death. The mask advice we were receiving early last year was just obvious nonsense that also didn't take a genius to figure out, as has since been revealed, and since I had N95's they were the obvious choice over cloth or surgical masks.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 861 by dwise1, posted 05-11-2021 8:56 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20254
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 864 of 905 (886223)
05-11-2021 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 857 by jar
05-10-2021 6:38 PM


Re: Big Guns
jar writes:

Actually a 9mm can do as much damage as an AR-15.

Maybe a 9mm *can* do as much damage as an AR-15, but it generally doesn't. According to dwise1's recent message, there's an enormous difference in muzzle velocity:

dwise1 writes:

  • Beretta M9 (adopted by US military)
    Muzzle velocity -- 1155 fps (352.044 mps)
    Ammo (mass of projectile) -- 9x19mm (7.49 g = 0.00749 kg)
    K = 0.00749 kg × (352.044 mps)2 = 928.273 joules

  • AR 15
    Muzzle velocity -- 2700 fps (822.96 mps)
    Ammo (mass of projectile) -- 5.56x45mm (3.65 g = 0.00365 kg)
    K = 0.00365 kg × (822.96 mps)2 = 2472 joules

The ammo for both weapons does tumble after hitting its target, but the AR-15 style weapon also has the incredible shock wave. To kill a person with a 9mm would require enough accuracy to hit or at least come very near vital parts of the anatomy such as heart or lungs or spinal chord or aorta and so forth. To do that six times against people presumably trying to escape is a big ask. To kill a person with an AR-15 only requires hitting the torso, not a big ask six times even with escaping targets. The damage would be devastating.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 857 by jar, posted 05-10-2021 6:38 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 866 by jar, posted 05-11-2021 10:08 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 873 by DrJones*, posted 05-11-2021 8:08 PM Percy has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 865 of 905 (886224)
05-11-2021 10:07 AM


Violence and root causes.
What is missing in the US (and many other nations) is that we are not addressing the root cause of violence.

The gun is NOT the problem, it is the society and lack of social support.

Saying that AR-15 type rifles are the problem is absolutely as stupid as claiming the election was stolen.

Personally, I find the AR platform ugly and really unpleasant and so it's not something I own or shoot. But to say that it is more dangerous than other platforms is at best sophomoric.

It's not concealable. It's not something that is effective in close quarters or crowds. It's a distance weapon rather than a BBD (Bad Breath Distance) choice. It's not used in very many of the reported shooting.

But most of all, it does not address the root causes of violence.

It is an easy cop-out similar to the Salvation Get Otta Hell Free card and so a feel good position for folk that are unable or unwilling to think.


My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 867 by ringo, posted 05-11-2021 10:38 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 868 by Tangle, posted 05-11-2021 3:14 PM jar has responded
 Message 891 by Percy, posted 05-12-2021 11:08 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 866 of 905 (886225)
05-11-2021 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 864 by Percy
05-11-2021 9:59 AM


Re: Big Guns
Yawn.

Try to actually think Percy. Who knows, you might even like it.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by Percy, posted 05-11-2021 9:59 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 870 by Phat, posted 05-11-2021 4:15 PM jar has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 867 of 905 (886226)
05-11-2021 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 865 by jar
05-11-2021 10:07 AM


Re: Violence and root causes.
jar writes:

The gun is NOT the problem, it is the society and lack of social support.


The problem is a society that wants guns.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 865 by jar, posted 05-11-2021 10:07 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8202
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 868 of 905 (886232)
05-11-2021 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 865 by jar
05-11-2021 10:07 AM


Re: Violence and root causes.
It's not a "platform' IT'S A GUN!

You know that revisionism is at work when they start changing the words.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 865 by jar, posted 05-11-2021 10:07 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 869 by jar, posted 05-11-2021 4:02 PM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 869 of 905 (886236)
05-11-2021 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 868 by Tangle
05-11-2021 3:14 PM


Re: Violence and root causes.
What caliber ammo is used in AR-15 type rifles? What is the difference between the two basic calibers? What type bullets are used in those two calibers of ammo? How man people are killed in the US every year by being shot with an AR-15 type rifle? What caliber of ammo and type of bullet was used in each of those cases?

Banning AR-15 style rifles is an easy but stupid tactic that has absolutely no effect on the root causes of violence.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 868 by Tangle, posted 05-11-2021 3:14 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 871 by Tangle, posted 05-11-2021 5:14 PM jar has not yet responded
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 Message 879 by Phat, posted 05-12-2021 12:25 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15609
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 870 of 905 (886239)
05-11-2021 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 866 by jar
05-11-2021 10:08 AM


Re: Big Guns
whenever you start sounding arrogant, its a sign that your fleshly entitlement issues are at work. Do try and be humble. You might even like it.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 866 by jar, posted 05-11-2021 10:08 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8202
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 871 of 905 (886240)
05-11-2021 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 869 by jar
05-11-2021 4:02 PM


Re: Violence and root causes.
jar writes:

What caliber ammo is used in AR-15 type rifles? What is the difference between the two basic calibers? What type bullets are used in those two calibers of ammo? How man people are killed in the US every year by being shot with an AR-15 type rifle? What caliber of ammo and type of bullet was used in each of those cases?

You think these esoteric distinctions actually matter? THEY'RE GUNS! Are you insane?

Banning AR-15 style rifles is an easy but stupid tactic that has absolutely no effect on the root causes of violence.

I completely agree, you need to ban GUNS, not brands, not calibers, not sub-categories of 'platforms'. Take guns out of circulation.
It's utterly crazy.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 869 by jar, posted 05-11-2021 4:02 PM jar has not yet responded

  
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