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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1256
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 6.6


(5)
Message 872 of 905 (886241)
05-11-2021 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 869 by jar
05-11-2021 4:02 PM


Re: Violence and root causes.
Banning AR-15 style rifles is an easy but stupid tactic that has absolutely no effect on the root causes of violence.

Violence exists everywhere, in every society. It always has, and always will, for the foreseeable future.

Guns make it spectacularly easier for that violence to result in deaths - even more so in mass deaths.

Expecting an end to human violence is not a realistic expectation. Expecting a reduction in the numbers of deaths from violence, through a reduction in the availability of the means of ready death, is a realistic expectation - look at the way things are over here.

Give it a go.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 869 by jar, posted 05-11-2021 4:02 PM jar has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2183
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 873 of 905 (886242)
05-11-2021 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 864 by Percy
05-11-2021 9:59 AM


Re: Big Guns
but the AR-15 style weapon also has the incredible shock wave.

really perhaps you could point out where the shockwave inducer should go in my build. I must have left it out when I put it together the first time.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by Percy, posted 05-11-2021 9:59 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 875 by AZPaul3, posted 05-11-2021 8:52 PM DrJones* has responded
 Message 898 by Percy, posted 05-13-2021 10:24 AM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 733
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 874 of 905 (886243)
05-11-2021 8:41 PM


9mm Smith & Wesson M&P pistol
It appears that a 9mm Smith & Wesson M&P pistol with a 15 round magazine was used in the recent Colorado Springs shooting. They recovered 17 cartridges so at some point the shooter changed magazines.

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6007
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 875 of 905 (886244)
05-11-2021 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 873 by DrJones*
05-11-2021 8:08 PM


Re: Big Guns
Hey, DrJones, You're not showing the magazine. The shock inducers are in there. They're called bullets.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 873 by DrJones*, posted 05-11-2021 8:08 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 876 by DrJones*, posted 05-11-2021 8:58 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2183
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 876 of 905 (886245)
05-11-2021 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 875 by AZPaul3
05-11-2021 8:52 PM


Re: Big Guns
The shock inducers are in there. They're called bullets.

so the "shockwave" is not inherent to the AR-15 as Percy claimed. In fact it can happen regardless of which type of firearm fires the bullet.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 875 by AZPaul3, posted 05-11-2021 8:52 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 877 by AZPaul3, posted 05-11-2021 10:00 PM DrJones* has responded
 Message 900 by Percy, posted 05-13-2021 10:34 AM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6007
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 877 of 905 (886247)
05-11-2021 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 876 by DrJones*
05-11-2021 8:58 PM


Re: Big Guns
Oh, the gun has a shockwave inducer as differentiated from the shock inducer itself. The shockwave inducer sets the shock inducer in motion. It's called a firing pin and every gun has one.

I'm being an ass.

The point is, all this talk of 9mm and muzzle velocity may be interesting but none of that matters. You get hit by a bullet fired from any gun and you're liable to be just as dead.

And it doesn't matter if guns kill people or people kill people, they are just as dead.

The gun problem is one of too easy access to weapons of considerable lethality given over to a hot-headed violent species that needs outside forces to control its violence.

One of those outside forces is limiting the availability of guns. That will not stop violence but the science seems to say it will save lives.

We can limit the death toll by limiting the lethality of the weapons available to this world's most violent animal. In this society the only reason to possess a gun is testosterone-fueled ego. In exchange for lives I can't think of a better excuse to ban guns.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by DrJones*, posted 05-11-2021 8:58 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 878 by DrJones*, posted 05-11-2021 11:07 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2183
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 878 of 905 (886249)
05-11-2021 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 877 by AZPaul3
05-11-2021 10:00 PM


Re: Big Guns
The point is, all this talk of 9mm and muzzle velocity may be interesting but none of that matters.

I agree. When we debate creationists like Phat and Faith we bemoan how they don't actually use facts in their "arguments" I'd like to see facts used in the gun debate. Not fantasies about how AR-15s magically imbue the rounds they fire with special properties.

Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 877 by AZPaul3, posted 05-11-2021 10:00 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 880 by xongsmith, posted 05-12-2021 12:43 AM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15609
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 879 of 905 (886252)
05-12-2021 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 869 by jar
05-11-2021 4:02 PM


Re: Violence and root causes.
jar writes:

The gun is NOT the problem, it is the society and lack of social support.

What type of social support do you suggest?
ringo writes:

The problem is a society that wants guns.

So how do we educate,inspire, and discipline this society that wants guns? Some of us resist a government that forces laws on us.

Tangle writes:

...you need to ban GUNS, not brands, not calibers, not sub-categories of 'platforms'. Take guns out of circulation.

That would make it harder for people to quickly kill each other, but jar has a point in that the social root causes of the insanity remain. Plus, I doubt he would ever let go of the right to bear arms.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 869 by jar, posted 05-11-2021 4:02 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 883 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2021 3:03 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 885 by jar, posted 05-12-2021 7:00 AM Phat has responded
 Message 889 by ringo, posted 05-12-2021 10:06 AM Phat has responded
 Message 903 by Percy, posted 05-13-2021 11:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2057
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 880 of 905 (886253)
05-12-2021 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 878 by DrJones*
05-11-2021 11:07 PM


Re: Big Guns
DrJones writes:
When we debate creationists like Phat and Faith we bemoan how they don't actually use facts in their "arguments" I'd like to see facts used in the gun debate.

but DWise presented some facts:

In the MKS system (meter-kilogram-second) K is measured in joules:
          1 joule = 1 kg·m2·sec-2

To calculate and compare the K of different firearms, you need to know two properties: muzzle velocity and mass of the projectile. Here are a few examples (using MKS):


  • Walther PPK ("Polizeipistole, Kriminal", police detective pistol made popular by James Bond)

    Muzzle velocity -- 970 fps (295.656 mps)
    Ammo (mass of projectile) -- 9x17mm (6.18 g = 0.00618 kg)
    K = 0.00618 kg × (295.656 mps)2 = 540.2 joules

  • Beretta M9 (adopted by US military)

    Muzzle velocity -- 1155 fps (352.044 mps)
    Ammo (mass of projectile) -- 9x19mm (7.49 g = 0.00749 kg)
    K = 0.00749 kg × (352.044 mps)2 = 928.273 joules

  • M16A1

    Muzzle velocity -- 3280 fps (999.744 mps)
    Ammo (mass of projectile) -- 5.56x45mm (3.65 g = 0.00365 kg)
    K = 0.00365 kg × (999.744 mps)2 = 3648.13 joules

  • AR 15

    Muzzle velocity -- 2700 fps (822.96 mps)
    Ammo (mass of projectile) -- 5.56x45mm (3.65 g = 0.00365 kg)
    K = 0.00365 kg × (822.96 mps)2 = 2472 joules

Even though the AR 15's slugs are about half the mass of the sidearms' slugs, the kinetic energy they impart is about 3 times greater because of their much higher velocity; ideally, with slugs of the same mass when you triple their velocity you increase their kinetic energy by a factor of nine.

those look like FACTS. What do you want to see?

The point is, all this talk of 9mm and muzzle velocity may be interesting but none of that matters. The point is, all this talk of 9mm and muzzle velocity may be interesting but none of that matters. You get hit by a bullet fired from any gun and you're liable to be just as dead.

WTF are AZPaul & you talking about? They had to shoot that kid 10 times in the back to kill him. And if there had been one righteous and judicious body tackle of the officer from fellow officers at shot 3 and he'd still be alive. But in the AR-15 style, just ONE bullet would have killed him.

Edited by xongsmith, : forgot some text


"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 878 by DrJones*, posted 05-11-2021 11:07 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 881 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2021 1:14 AM xongsmith has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6007
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 881 of 905 (886254)
05-12-2021 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 880 by xongsmith
05-12-2021 12:43 AM


Re: Big Guns
WTF are AZPaul & you talking about?

Humans and guns. Not a good combination. We can alleviate significant suffering in this country by separating the two.

That seems the essence of the main discussion. This lethal power stuff is sideshow, and, frankly, a disturbing one. How much power to instantly kill or take 10 shots to kill is not where the discussion needs to be.

Keep guns away from the proven dangerous species. Humans top that list. Frankly, I wouldn't trust any of the other primates, either. And cats. For god's sake don't arm the cats!


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 880 by xongsmith, posted 05-12-2021 12:43 AM xongsmith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 882 by xongsmith, posted 05-12-2021 2:25 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2057
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 882 of 905 (886255)
05-12-2021 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 881 by AZPaul3
05-12-2021 1:14 AM


Re: Big Guns
we seem to have banned hand grenades from class rooms, and machine guns, cannons, missiles. so yeah - the long march is to reeducate people from wanting guns to not wanting them. but that is a long ways away. lets ban the assault weapons like 1994-2004 again.


"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 881 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2021 1:14 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 884 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2021 3:16 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8202
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 883 of 905 (886257)
05-12-2021 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 879 by Phat
05-12-2021 12:25 AM


Re: Violence and root causes.
Phat writes:

That would make it harder for people to quickly kill each other

I may be old fashioned but I regard that as 'a good thing'.

but jar has a point in that the social root causes of the insanity remain.

That's hardly a point in his favour is it? If the insanity in people exists who but the more insane would give them guns?

Plus, I doubt he would ever let go of the right to bear arms.

Of course he wouldn't, he's a child and he's insane about this issue. They have to be removed from him gently while he's asleep by a loving parent.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 879 by Phat, posted 05-12-2021 12:25 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6007
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 884 of 905 (886258)
05-12-2021 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 882 by xongsmith
05-12-2021 2:25 AM


Re: Big Guns
... lets ban the assault weapons like 1994-2004 again.

Yes. Just like hand grenades. Except we ban them because they are stupid dangerous killing machines, not for the size or color of the shrapnel they leave behind.

Yes, it's political, but I think we need to assert the actual argument for such a ban, now, for this action, if we expect to progress to the next step which is to ban all handguns.

Saying the big guns are so dastardly lethal and need to be banned while these little Saturday Night Specials are just ignored as popguns is asinine. All need to be banned for the same justifiable humanitarian reasons. Humans and guns is a terrible unjustifiable lethal mix and needs to end.

I know it won't happen soon, so do what we can to keep grenades and AKs out of classrooms.

But, we do so not because assault rifles have x more killerquatloos of death creating power but because its a gun. It's fuckin dangerous in a classroom. It's fuckin dangerous in a human society.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 882 by xongsmith, posted 05-12-2021 2:25 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 885 of 905 (886259)
05-12-2021 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 879 by Phat
05-12-2021 12:25 AM


Re: Violence and root causes.
Phat writes:

What type of social support do you suggest?

Well readily available free medical and mental health in local communities, increased economic parity, improved child care, higher minimum wages, revised tax system, smaller local neighborhood schools, changes to the concept of policing, decriminalization and nationalization of all current illicit drugs and giving them away for free though local health clinics, legalized abortions in all 50 states would make a good start.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 879 by Phat, posted 05-12-2021 12:25 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 887 by Phat, posted 05-12-2021 9:44 AM jar has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20254
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 886 of 905 (886261)
05-12-2021 8:24 AM


Don't have time to read the thread now, someone may already have posted this, but the weapon used in the Colorado Springs birthday party mass murder was a Smith and Wesson 9mm semi-automatic pistol.

--Percy


  
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