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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Phat
Member
Posts: 15609
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 887 of 905 (886262)
05-12-2021 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 885 by jar
05-12-2021 7:00 AM


Right To Bear Arms Re-examined
jar writes:

The gun is NOT the problem, it is the society and lack of social support.

You have heard the phrase that the pen is mightier than the sword. For the sake of argument, one could say that bad ideas indirectly kill or cripple as many or more people than do guns. Would you argue that banning all guns is as silly as banning all pens?

How would you defend the right to bear arms in today's modern and dysfunctional society? What are some reasons to keep this freedom intact? How could we do it while making the streets safer?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by jar, posted 05-12-2021 7:00 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 888 by jar, posted 05-12-2021 10:02 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 902 by Percy, posted 05-13-2021 10:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 888 of 905 (886263)
05-12-2021 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 887 by Phat
05-12-2021 9:44 AM


Re: Violence and root causes.
Phat writes:

How would you defend the right to bear arms in today's modern and dysfunctional society?

First, understand that the right to bear arms is a Constitutional Protected fact just like the Right of Freedom of Religion or Freedom of Speech or any of the other similar "Rights" enumerated in our Constitution.

That does not mean that any of those rights are unlimited or illimitable.

But it does mean that any limits we choose to apply to those rights must have a reasoned basis founded in facts not misinformation.

While we may not like those facts we need to recognize that such facts do exist.

The proper way to limit the Right to Bear Arms in the US is twofold; first through the legal system and then through education, enforcement of the laws and mitigating the root cause of violence.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 887 by Phat, posted 05-12-2021 9:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 889 of 905 (886264)
05-12-2021 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 879 by Phat
05-12-2021 12:25 AM


Re: Violence and root causes.
Phat writes:

So how do we educate,inspire, and discipline this society that wants guns?


You can't. As I pointed out in another post once upon a time, your country has had this problem for hundreds of years.

Phat writes:

Some of us resist a government that forces laws on us.


And there you go. That's the root of the problem.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 879 by Phat, posted 05-12-2021 12:25 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 890 by Phat, posted 05-12-2021 10:36 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15609
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 890 of 905 (886265)
05-12-2021 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 889 by ringo
05-12-2021 10:06 AM


Re: Violence and root causes.
Perhaps, but we cant simply have 51% of the people voting in laws that 100% are required to follow. It is my argument against mandatory reparations that jar questions the problem with. 49% of us do not believe that white Christians were the problem that reparations and rewriting History are supposed to help solve.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 889 by ringo, posted 05-12-2021 10:06 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 892 by xongsmith, posted 05-12-2021 3:36 PM Phat has responded
 Message 893 by ringo, posted 05-12-2021 5:21 PM Phat has responded
 Message 905 by dwise1, posted 05-13-2021 6:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20254
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 891 of 905 (886266)
05-12-2021 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 865 by jar
05-11-2021 10:07 AM


Re: Violence and root causes.
jar writes:

The gun is NOT the problem, it is the society and lack of social support.

Not that a more enlightened approach by government wouldn't help, but all the evidence says guns are the problem.

Saying that AR-15 type rifles are the problem is absolutely as stupid as claiming the election was stolen.

I think you need to respond to arguments actually made instead of ones you make up.

Personally, I find the AR platform ugly and really unpleasant and so it's not something I own or shoot. But to say that it is more dangerous than other platforms is at best sophomoric.

This assertion about relative deadliness is wrong, you offered no evidence in support, and you didn't address evidence introduced earlier that argues against this assertion. More on relative deadliness later.

It's not concealable.

Not true and not a problem. Then there are the localities where carrying semi-automatic rifles out in the open is perfectly legal, so no one has any inkling they're in danger until the person opens fire.

It's not something that is effective in close quarters or crowds.

Questionable and obviously not much of an obstacle anyway.

It's a distance weapon rather than a BBD (Bad Breath Distance) choice. It's not used in very many of the reported shooting.

Obviously false. Referencing Guns used in mass shootings U.S. 2021 | Statista, since 1982 handguns have been used in 96 incidents and semi-automatic rifles in 47 (for an unexplained reason the Las Vegas Strip massacre wasn't included in the count, so it's really 48). Boiling this down, 2/3 of mass shootings are committed with handguns, 1/3 with semi-automatic rifles.

But the deadlier the mass shooting the more likely an AR-15 style weapon was involved. Mass shootings in the United States - Wikipedia reveals that for deadlier mass shootings, 10 or more dead, the likelihood of a semi-automatic rifle being responsible rises from a third to nearly a half. For the top 10 mass shootings the involvement of semi-automatic rifles rises to 70%.

But most of all, it does not address the root causes of violence.

But more effective gun control *would* address a root cause of violence ending in murder.

It is an easy cop-out similar to the Salvation Get Otta Hell Free card and so a feel good position for folk that are unable or unwilling to think.

People could just respond, "No, you're wrong, it's you who's unable or unwilling to think." What now? Maybe discuss the evidence?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 865 by jar, posted 05-11-2021 10:07 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 894 by jar, posted 05-13-2021 6:49 AM Percy has responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2057
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 892 of 905 (886267)
05-12-2021 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 890 by Phat
05-12-2021 10:36 AM


Re: Violence and root causes.
Phat writes:
Perhaps, but we cant simply have 51% of the people voting in laws that 100% are required to follow.

So you do NOT believe in Democracy? what about 54%? 60%? 99%?

49% of us do not believe that white Christians were the problem that reparations and rewriting History are supposed to help solve.

talk about white privilege running amok!

Yes, Phat - white christians ARE the problem. Especially male white Christians. although Saracuda, Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert are making big headway into that male dominant field.


"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 890 by Phat, posted 05-12-2021 10:36 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 897 by Phat, posted 05-13-2021 8:49 AM xongsmith has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 893 of 905 (886268)
05-12-2021 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 890 by Phat
05-12-2021 10:36 AM


Re: Violence and root causes.
Phat writes:

Perhaps, but we cant simply have 51% of the people voting in laws that 100% are required to follow.


Actually, it's considerably less than 51%.

Phat writes:

It is my argument against mandatory reparations that jar questions the problem with.


You seem to be the only one talking about "mandatory reparations". But yes, when you do something wrong, reparations are an important step in doing what's right.

Phat writes:

49% of us do not believe that white Christians were the problem that reparations and rewriting History are supposed to help solve.


It really doesn't matter whether you believe it or not. If a plurality elects representatives who believe that reparations are the way to go, then reparations you will pay.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 890 by Phat, posted 05-12-2021 10:36 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 896 by Phat, posted 05-13-2021 8:45 AM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 894 of 905 (886276)
05-13-2021 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 891 by Percy
05-12-2021 11:08 AM


Re: Violence and root causes.
The evidence is out there Percy, real evidence not infotainment.

The relative deadliness of various ammo is pretty much irrelevant. There simply isn't much difference.

The difference between a longer barrel and a shorter barrel is significant.

But to claim an AR-15 is more deadly than a M1 or AK-47 or SKS or AR-10 or and of the literally hundreds of other rifles is just flat wrong.

But it is an easy cop-out feel good position for those who are unwilling or unable to think.

Violence is a problem.

But looking at those states and cities with the most restrictive gun laws doesn't show that the laws prevent any shootings.

So let's look at reality.

What do we see in the US today when it comes to gun laws?

Do we see cities and states eliminating the right to bear arms?

What are the legislatures and courts saying?


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 891 by Percy, posted 05-12-2021 11:08 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 895 by Phat, posted 05-13-2021 8:37 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 904 by Percy, posted 05-13-2021 1:39 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15609
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 895 of 905 (886277)
05-13-2021 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 894 by jar
05-13-2021 6:49 AM


Understanding Jar
One of my favorite things to do, even though it often frustrates and annoys many of my peers--is to figure out the emotional appeals and likely dynamics of one making an argument. So let me take a wild guess at two characters. jar and Percy.

jar likely was initiated into an inner sanctum where men learned to handle guns and viewed them as a responsibility and charge rather than a social or cultural right. Likely it was his father. the gun became a symbol of responsibility and maturity. Add to this the fact that the right to bear arms is constitutionally protected. The honest way to approach jar on these subjects is to present a reasoned argument as to why the constitution should be changed. Keep in mind that he feels responsible for defending the constitution in these matters. Emotional and logical appeals based on gun violence will fail to persuade him.

Percy has some skills at gathering facts from the news media which show that gun violence is a very real problem both among police and citizens. He tries to appeal to common sense and rationality. A good argument but it wont move the NRA. Especially the inner sanctum who feel guns to be an ongoing symbol of responsibility and sacred defense of the constitution. The only way to reach them is in court, where one needs a skilled attorney on behalf of the people who will challenge the sacred aura and the social responsibility.

Even then, the laws are constitutionally enforced.

So jar....be honest. If there was a movement trying to change the constitution, would you automatically fight it? Would you defend the constitution no matter what the proponents of changing it argued?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 894 by jar, posted 05-13-2021 6:49 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15609
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 896 of 905 (886278)
05-13-2021 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 893 by ringo
05-12-2021 5:21 PM


Re: Violence and root causes.
ringo writes:

If a plurality elects representatives who believe that reparations are the way to go, then reparations you will pay.

There is always a way to challenge authority. Its as human as fear of snakes. I have a fear of snakes who are smarter than God.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 893 by ringo, posted 05-12-2021 5:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 901 by ringo, posted 05-13-2021 10:36 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15609
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 897 of 905 (886279)
05-13-2021 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 892 by xongsmith
05-12-2021 3:36 PM


Re: Violence and root causes.
Yes, Phat - white Christians ARE the problem.
So which cultural group are we replacing them with in the social hierarchy? Are there any worthy enough? Who gets to run the planet next? What qualifications do they have?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 892 by xongsmith, posted 05-12-2021 3:36 PM xongsmith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 899 by xongsmith, posted 05-13-2021 10:33 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20254
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 898 of 905 (886280)
05-13-2021 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 873 by DrJones*
05-11-2021 8:08 PM


Re: Big Guns
DrJOnes* writes:

really perhaps you could point out where the shockwave inducer should go in my build. I must have left it out when I put it together the first time.

Was this an attempt at some kind of wry humor, or are you really this disinterested in serious discussion? To answer your question anyway, the "shockwave inducer" is not shown in your photo, nor is the "shockwave inducer container". Here they are:

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 873 by DrJones*, posted 05-11-2021 8:08 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2057
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 899 of 905 (886281)
05-13-2021 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 897 by Phat
05-13-2021 8:49 AM


Re: Violence and root causes.
Phat asks"
So which cultural group are we replacing them with in the social hierarchy? Are there any worthy enough? Who gets to run the planet next? What qualifications do they have?

how about none of the above! not anarchy, although that has a certain romanticized attraction.

i'd like to see an amalgam of everybody with equal powers and representation. impossible at the moment, but worth striving for.


"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 897 by Phat, posted 05-13-2021 8:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20254
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 900 of 905 (886282)
05-13-2021 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 876 by DrJones*
05-11-2021 8:58 PM


Re: Big Guns
DrJones* writes:

so the "shockwave" is not inherent to the AR-15 as Percy claimed. In fact it can happen regardless of which type of firearm fires the bullet.

Will you next claim, "Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people"? I had a feeling you weren't being serious.

I've been saying "AR-15 style weapons," which are capable of inflicting devastating and often lethal injuries. Any weapons capable of inflicting these kinds of injuries should also be banned.

I also favor banning bullets designed to increase their ability to harm, of any calibre for any gun.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by DrJones*, posted 05-11-2021 8:58 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 901 of 905 (886283)
05-13-2021 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 896 by Phat
05-13-2021 8:45 AM


Re: Violence and root causes.
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

If a plurality elects representatives who believe that reparations are the way to go, then reparations you will pay.


There is always a way to challenge authority.

Of course. There are all kinds of legal challenges and pressures along to way to a law being enacted. But once the law is enacted, civilized people render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. They don't storm the Capitol.

Phat writes:

I have a fear of snakes who are smarter than God.


They're not necessarily smarter than God - just more honest.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 896 by Phat, posted 05-13-2021 8:45 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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