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Author Topic:   REMIX: Who Can Be Saved?
Phat
Member
Posts: 15691
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1 of 138 (824022)
11-21-2017 8:21 AM


REMIX: Who Can Be Saved? A Christian Perspective. Originated by jar.
**************************************************************

jar writes:

IMHO, as a Christian, anyone can be saved whether or not they acknowledge or profess a belief in Jesus or even GOD. In fact, even if they deny the existence of GOD they can and will likely be saved.

Jesus said that there are two commandments, Love God and the two-parter, love others as you love yourself.

Basically, that's it, love GOD and love others as you love yourself.

So the question is, "Do you have to acknowledge GOD or even believe in GOD to Love GOD?"

IMHO and according to the Bible, the answer is "No. You can love GOD without acknowledging GOD or even if you deny GOD's very existence."

If you examine Matthew 25 31:46, it is pretty clear what is needed to love GOD.

31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

And when you read that, there is nothing about professing GOD or Jesus, nothing about being a Jew or Christian, nothing about being religious. In fact, many who profess a belief in Jesus, who are good Christians, Jews or Muslims, will certainly be Goats and not sheep while many atheists and agnostics will certainly be sheep and not goats.
So to others out there, whether you are Christian, one of the other Judaic faiths, agnostic or even atheist, what do you think? Who can be saved and how do you support your position?

Faith & Belief, Please.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 04-23-2018 3:39 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15691
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 3 of 138 (831728)
04-23-2018 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
11-21-2017 8:21 AM


The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Peter Kreeft is a Catholic Apologist who is one of my favorites. He recently was attributed for this quote:
quote:
God created the possibility of evil; people actualized that potentiality. The source of evil is not God's power but mankind's freedom. Even an all-powerful God could not have created a world in which people had genuine freedom and yet there was no potentiality for sin because our freedom includes the possibility of sin within its own meaning.
You say that Christianity need not be a religion but simply an altruistic way of life-based upon what one does on a daily basis.

While I don't disagree with your philosophical approach, I wanted to ask others what merit Kreeft's quote has on their own personal belief system.

After all, it does make sense that God allowed a possibility of evil yet made it so it is not a foregone actuality.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 11-21-2017 8:21 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 04-23-2018 5:28 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 04-23-2018 5:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 04-24-2018 11:46 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15691
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 7 of 138 (831881)
04-26-2018 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by ringo
04-24-2018 11:46 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
You are making it too cut and dried. Instead of trying to hold the definition of what God can do and not do to the book written by humans about Him, why not feel free to speculate?

Humans have freedom to a limited degree. We cannot flap our arms and fly, for instance, but we can build airplanes. We cannot live a life free from the constraints of oxygen because we need oxygen to live. Does this then mean that we are not truly free? Not at all...it only means we cannot create the reality that we want.

And the source of man's freedom is God's power. Therefore, the source of evil is God.
And yet you don't believe that He even exists. Are you not free?

Blaming God for our imprisonment is like blaming oxygen for not allowing us to live without it. A pointless exercise in futility.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 04-24-2018 11:46 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 04-26-2018 11:39 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15691
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 9 of 138 (831888)
04-26-2018 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
04-26-2018 11:39 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
ringo writes:

If your God is the creator of all things seen and unseen, He has to take responsibility for something.

Allow me to present an analogy.

At one point in time, there was no such thing as "Gods Way." There was only "The Way".

"The Way" corresponded perfectly with reality as it existed. Nobody really knows what a world was then like without "evil". If one stubbed ones toe, would it then turn purple? Would one even stub a toe in such an environment? Did bees even sting? We dont really know because we now live in a reality where all sorts of scenarios are possible. Perhaps all sorts of realities and outcomes as well. For some rational minds, living in an unfettered environment with chosen response to reality unfettered by any obligation to a God is preferable to living under the auspices of "Gods Way". Does that make any sense?

GOD: Accept Jesus, ringo. You know that you can trust me.
ringo: No, no I don't. You flooded the place once. Why cant you just leave us all alone and alow us to become responsible?

GOD: Look around you. Wars, hunger, greed. When will it ever stop?

ringo: Its not like you've helped much. Half of all that was caused by your followers in the first place.

GOD: And you are one of my best followers. I see your spare change altruism on a daily basis.

ringo: I don't do that for you. I do it for them. Its what I do.

GOD: You always were one of my more independant children.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 04-26-2018 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 04-27-2018 11:44 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15691
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 11 of 138 (835405)
06-23-2018 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
04-27-2018 11:44 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
ringo writes:

But if God created a real world with real consequences and if He created us with rational minds to deal with those circumstances, why wouldn't He expect us to use our minds?

Perhaps He expects us to question, doubt, and challenge Him. Simply saving everybody, however, is too easy. Of course, that brings up the question as to why people are even lost initially, to begin with.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 04-27-2018 11:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 12:00 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15691
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 13 of 138 (835462)
06-23-2018 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
04-26-2018 11:39 AM


Ringo-round and round it goes
Phat writes:

Instead of trying to hold the definition of what God can do and not do to the book written by humans about Him, why not feel free to speculate?


So accept the Bible when it's convenient and just make up the rest?
According to you its all made up anyway. So whats the difference?
Phat writes:

Does this then mean that we are not truly free? ...Not at all...it only means we cannot create the reality that we want.
But according to you we do create the reality of Hell ourselves, don't we?

Blaming God for our imprisonment is like blaming oxygen for not allowing us to live without it.


Well, no. Oxygen didn't create the constraints.
No, reality did. if God is a part of reality, we will need to deal with Him eventually. And for all practical purposes, it matters not whether oxygen created the constraints or whether reality did---you still can't live without oxygen and there is no use to blame it.

You can't have it both ways. If your God is the creator of all things seen and unseen, He has to take responsibility for something.
And yet you also insist that humans take responsibility. Perhaps there is a communion after all!

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 04-26-2018 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 4:16 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15691
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 14 of 138 (835463)
06-23-2018 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ringo
06-23-2018 12:00 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
ringo writes:

We're only "lost" because of Him. It's like being "lost" on a tropical island where we're reasonably happy and contented but He insists on "rescuing" us against our will.

Perhaps He knows that the volcano on that Island will soon erupt. Perhaps He wants us to have alternatives to the Island alone.

And why would being "rescued" be against our will? Are we that stubborn that we won't allow Him to help us? Are we so proud that we feel we have outgrown our belief in Him?

Have we become so tainted by the fallibilities of organized religion that we cant accept God at all? Are we so stuck on our own evolved wisdom that we think we need evidence before proceeding with a belief?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 12:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 4:24 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15691
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 16 of 138 (835467)
06-23-2018 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ringo
06-23-2018 4:16 PM


Re: Ringo-round and round it goes
We need to take responsibility for our fellow man because your God doesn't.
I won't argue. To me its a bit like when my Dad taught me to ride a two-wheeler. He didn't hold the bike but he was alongside me should it wobble. You may argue that there is no Dad running along beside us so we best learn to steer ourselves. I may argue that I believe He is there...just not doing everything for us.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 4:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 06-24-2018 2:13 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15691
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 18 of 138 (835472)
06-23-2018 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ringo
06-23-2018 4:24 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Phat writes:

Are we so proud that we feel we have outgrown our belief in Him?


ringo writes:

Yes. Is that a bad thing?

I predict that there will again come a time within human history that will be so challenging and so tough that some will run back to the comfort of belief and in their own mind feel as if they are returning to God. Others will remain convinced that there is no magic bullet and will attempt to put Humpty Dumpty together yet again for another try at doing it ourselves.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 4:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2018 5:45 PM Phat has responded
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 06-24-2018 2:18 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15691
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 27 of 138 (835544)
06-24-2018 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
06-24-2018 2:13 PM


Re: Ringo-round and round it goes
Does the father prop up the son forever?
As long as my Dad was alive He would have had my back should I ever have needed it. He did not coddle me, but he would never have left me to fend for myself should I have asked for his help.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 06-24-2018 2:13 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 06-24-2018 2:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15691
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 29 of 138 (835704)
06-28-2018 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ringo
06-23-2018 4:24 PM


ringo's stubborn insistence on being left alone
Phat writes:

And why would being "rescued" be against our will? Are we that stubborn that we won't allow Him to help us?


What ever happened to "free will"?
Your whole argument seems to be that even if God is real and loving, you will likely freely reject a relationship/communion with Him.

While I agree that it seems unfair that this dooms you (and negates true free will) I again use the analogy of oxygen. One can choose not to breathe it, but it is, in fact, the only gas that will support our life. I never figured out why you are so stubborn in regards to this growing up analogy....you seem to take pride in not needing any help whatsoever. And we all know how bad pride can be.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 4:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 06-28-2018 1:24 PM Phat has responded
 Message 31 by jar, posted 06-28-2018 4:22 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15691
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 32 of 138 (835727)
06-29-2018 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
06-28-2018 4:22 PM


Re: ringo's stubborn insistence on being left alone
jar writes:

And you have never explained how someone can have a relationship/communion with God.

It has been explained many ways by many people, but would likely never satisfy your intellectual curiosity since you already have preconceived notions over who God is, what makes sense for you to accept, and of course your bias over the apologists and those marketing the current product. (You don't trust any of them) and yet you market a Christianity where the emphasis is on us and what we do for others, leaving God as potentially irrelevant to that charge. I have no problem with your beliefs except that you are forever questioning how God can even be known. How do I know its not satan or my stomach growling at me? I suppose in a strictly empirical sense I don't, though I trust my beliefs and intuitions. How do you know that God is unknowable? Is it because you have a pre-existing bias that the apologists and snake oil salesmen are after your wallet? Is it because your understanding of logic, reason, and reality can provide no satisfactory evidence? Do you never allow for unevidenced belief? Why must I continually answer this question?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 06-28-2018 4:22 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 06-29-2018 12:01 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15691
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 34 of 138 (837222)
07-28-2018 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ringo
06-28-2018 1:24 PM


Re: ringo's stubborn insistence on being left alone
ringo writes:

It's that I can't count on your God to help me.

Why?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 06-28-2018 1:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 07-29-2018 4:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15691
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 35 of 138 (837223)
07-28-2018 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
06-29-2018 12:01 PM


No Apologies
Peter Kreeft writes:

The source of evil is not God's power but mankind's freedom.


ringo writes:

And the source of man's freedom is God's power. Therefore, the source of evil is God.
And the kicker is that God said so Himself:

quote:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

jar, referring to Peter Kreeft writes:

The man is an Apologist.
Nuff Said!

It appears that jar at least has a bias against apologetics. I admit that I have a bias against unbelief...so in that sense we are both biased.

As to ringos claim that the source of evil is God, I submit the following scripture:

Deuteronomy 30:15-20 (ESV) writes:


15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God[a] that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules,\[b\] then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, 20 loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

So if a man decides to just live his life on his own terms rather than listening to any "God" is he worshipping other gods by default? In other words, is listening to our own internal conscience akin to worshipping another god?

Edited by Phat, : spelling


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 06-29-2018 12:01 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 07-29-2018 4:23 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15691
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 38 of 138 (837349)
07-30-2018 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
07-29-2018 4:23 PM


Re: No Apologies
Well it does mention "turning to other gods." How would one hypothetically do that today?

Deut 30:11-14 writes:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

You claim that we obviously must build our own arks...but the instructions come from within. You used to always emphasize the message over the messenger...so what does this message say? That the Word is very near...in our heart. My question is then:
If a man does not listen to his own heart is he running after other gods metaphorically?
Also is an unbeliever capable of listening to this inner Word?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 07-29-2018 4:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 07-30-2018 4:41 PM Phat has responded
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 07-31-2018 12:15 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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