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Author Topic:   REMIX: Who Can Be Saved?
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 4 of 138 (831739)
04-23-2018 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
04-23-2018 3:39 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
The man is an Apologist.

Nuff Said!


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 04-23-2018 3:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 31 of 138 (835708)
06-28-2018 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
06-28-2018 1:14 PM


Re: ringo's stubborn insistence on being left alone
Phat writes:

Your whole argument seems to be that even if God is real and loving, you will likely freely reject a relationship/communion with Him.

And you have never explained how someone can have a relationship/communion with God.

How do you know that your relationship is not with Satan or Allah or Ganesha or just a bad burrito?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 06-28-2018 1:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 06-29-2018 11:32 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 33 of 138 (835731)
06-29-2018 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
06-29-2018 11:32 AM


why answer questions?
Phat writes:

Why must I continually answer this question?

Because you assert people avoid such a communion! But unless you can explain how such a thing is possible it is silly to claim anyone avoids it.

Phat writes:

How do you know that God is unknowable?

I don't and have never claimed such a thing. I have asked how it is possible to know such a thing and no one has ever had an answer. The Muslim says Allah in knowable. The Hindu says Ganesha is knowable. Yet neither explains how.


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 39 of 138 (837352)
07-30-2018 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
07-30-2018 3:55 PM


Re: No Apologies
Phat writes:

Also is an unbeliever capable of listening to this inner Word?

Remember that Deuteronomy is written by authors that from a Christian perspective are unbelievers; by Jews. It is a series of lectures, three major sermons attributed to Moses and set before the Conquest of Canaan. There are three main themes; the creation of a peoples called Israel, the God of that peoples and the covenant (contract) between that God and that Peoples.


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 42 of 138 (837594)
08-06-2018 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
08-06-2018 3:54 PM


Re: No Apologies
Jesus was addressing folk that did not believe Jesus was God.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 08-06-2018 3:54 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 44 of 138 (837600)
08-06-2018 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
08-06-2018 4:23 PM


Re: No Apologies
Phat writes:

But lets assume your basic argument concening the later attempts to change the Great Commission. What motives would the author of John have had regarding teaching what he did?

What motives would Paul have had? How do these motives stand up in the overall message which they espoused?

In other words, why did the message have to be changed? And why did the early church approve of the additions?

Let's get the basics straight; there were not attempts to change the Great Commission, according to what was written the Great Commission was changed.

And how could anyone know what the motives of the authors of the stories were and why would their motives even matter?


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 08-06-2018 4:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 08-06-2018 4:33 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 46 of 138 (837606)
08-06-2018 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
08-06-2018 4:33 PM


Re: No Apologies
Phat writes:

How would the motives of the Sheep and Goat sermon matter any more, then?

The motives of the Sheep and Goats never mattered; that is the whole point of he parable.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 08-06-2018 5:07 PM jar has responded
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 08-09-2018 10:21 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 48 of 138 (837617)
08-06-2018 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
08-06-2018 5:07 PM


Re: No Apologies
Absolutely. It is what was done that was significant and NOT the motivation. The Goats thought motive had value and Jesus clearly pointed out that they were wrong. What happens to the Goats after they rise from the dead is a different issue and one no one can answer.

Edited by jar, : hit wrong key


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jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 50 of 138 (837790)
08-09-2018 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
08-09-2018 10:21 AM


Re: No Apologies
LOL

Again, there is no way to know or even guess about the motivation of any author; nor is it of any relevance.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 08-09-2018 10:21 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 08-09-2018 10:35 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 52 of 138 (837792)
08-09-2018 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
08-09-2018 10:35 AM


Re: No Apologies
Phat writes:

In that case it matters little if and how the Great Commission changed.

So what if the deal seems sweeter and easier now? Its hard enough to get people to do anything.

Again, the point is that the Great Commission WAS changed.

It is simply additional evidence that the Bible is the product of humans each creating the narrative they want to market.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 08-09-2018 3:22 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 54 of 138 (837819)
08-09-2018 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
08-09-2018 3:22 PM


Re: No Apologies
Phat writes:

My point is why should we give any more weight to Matthew 25 than we do to John or Romans?

You should not.

You should look at the whole body of writings and be honest about what is written. You should stop looking for things that can be taken out of context to suit YOUR agenda. Stop quoting John 3:16 and look at what follows as well:

John 3:16-21 writes:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Note that it goes on to explain that it is the acts, the actions that count and not simply belief or worship. The "condemnation" is not salvation but rather behavior and actions.


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 Message 53 by Phat, posted 08-09-2018 3:22 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 08-24-2018 11:06 AM jar has responded
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 09-04-2018 4:22 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 56 of 138 (838616)
08-24-2018 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
08-24-2018 11:06 AM


Re: No Apologies
Phat writes:

Dont the atheists on The Atheist Experience do the same thing? Does not their show represent an agenda of education and information?

The fact that other people commit the same errors does not change the fact that they are still errors.


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jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 58 of 138 (839182)
09-04-2018 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
09-04-2018 4:22 PM


Re: No Apologies
Phat writes:

You and ringo, in contrast, appear to promote the idea that WE humans are responsible for our future and that no God (or Messiah) is going to rescue us.

Granted I see your point and yet do not believe it. You may say that by refusing to accept the facts that lead to your conclusions I am being dishonest with myself and others, but at this point in time, I do not concur.

Kinda, you want a God that will rescue Phat.

So you only accept those parts of the Bible stories that can be claimed to support the end product YOU want.

What I point out that Jesus repeatedly says that YOU need to do it.

Nor is there any evidence that any God ever came and rescued us.

But we have been given the GREAT GIFT of knowledge of right and wrong and if we do what is right we won't need rescuing.


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 60 of 138 (839195)
09-05-2018 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
09-05-2018 2:55 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Notice Faith that not one of your examples shows God rescuing anyone.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 2:55 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 09-05-2018 8:58 AM jar has responded
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 11:34 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 62 of 138 (839201)
09-05-2018 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
09-05-2018 8:58 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:

Her examples do emphasize the doctrine of hereditary sin, however.

Learn to read, Phat.

There is NOTHING in what you quoted about hereditary sin or the fall or anything related to the Genesis 2&3 fable.

Once again, you are simply trying to find and failing to find support for your position.

"Sanctify us also that we may faithfully receive this holy Sacrament, and serve you in unity, constancy, and peace; and at the last day bring us with all your saints into the joy of your eternal kingdom"

Notice it talks about serving, stuff YOU do, not what others long dead did.

But if you had fully read your link you would come across both the origin of the dogma of Original Sin (which you and I have discussed in the past) as well as the modern understanding.

quote:
The shared sinful condition of all humanity. This Christian doctrine is drawn from the Pauline writings, such as Rom 5:12-19 and 1 Cor 15:21-22, which suggest that humanity shares by nature in the fall of Adam described in Gn 3. Paul likewise urges that the consequences for humanity of Adam's fall are to be reversed through saving participation in Christ's victory over sin and death.

So two passages from Paul are what is used to justify the whole concept of Original Sin and if you actually go and read those passages they misrepresent what is actually written in Genesis 2&3.

Reading on you would have seen:

quote:
Although the consequences of original sin have not been emphasized as strongly in Anglicanism as in other Protestant traditions, Article IX of the Articles of Religion, "Of Original or Birth-Sin," states that "man is very far gone from original righteousness, and is of his own nature inclined to evil"

Again, even there it talks about the consequences of the individual's behavior and nature, not what those long dead might have done or even what the individual actually does.

Your source ended with:

quote:
Original sin may be understood as humanity's innate self-centeredness. A consequence of this condition is human weakness and fallibility relative to sin. Another consequence is the influence of human sinfulness in our history and environment, to which we are subjected from birth. These influences all serve to restrict the actual freedom of moral choices, requiring us to look to God for hope and salvation.

Again, if you look at the whole of the Episcopal Church's position it is that we are charged to rise above any innate self-centerdness.

Salvation if it should happen in the theological context will be after one is dead. What is needed in reality is an attempt to improve the actual living conditions for those folk not dead.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 09-05-2018 8:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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