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Author Topic:   REMIX: Who Can Be Saved?
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 6 of 138 (831763)
04-24-2018 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
04-23-2018 3:39 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
The source of evil is not God's power but mankind's freedom.

And the source of man's freedom is God's power. Therefore, the source of evil is God.

And the kicker is that God said so Himself:

quote:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

So, if an apologist says otherwise, don't believe him.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 04-23-2018 3:39 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 04-26-2018 10:35 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 8 of 138 (831884)
04-26-2018 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
04-26-2018 10:35 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Phat writes:

Instead of trying to hold the definition of what God can do and not do to the book written by humans about Him, why not feel free to speculate?


So accept the Bible when it's convenient and just make up the rest?

Phat writes:

Does this then mean that we are not truly free? Not at all...it only means we cannot create the reality that we want.


But according to you we do create the reality of Hell ourselves, don't we?

Phat writes:

And yet you don't believe that He even exists. Are you not free?


I suppose I'm freer than somebody who's trying to please "God".

Phat writes:

Blaming God for our imprisonment is like blaming oxygen for not allowing us to live without it.


Well, no. Oxygen didn't create the constraints.

You can't have it both ways. If your God id the creator of all things seen and unseen, He has to take responsibility for something.


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 04-26-2018 10:35 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 04-26-2018 3:51 PM ringo has responded
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 3:58 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 10 of 138 (831915)
04-27-2018 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
04-26-2018 3:51 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Phat writes:

Would one even stub a toe in such an environment? Did bees even sting? We dont really know because we now live in a reality where all sorts of scenarios are possible. Perhaps all sorts of realities and outcomes as well. For some rational minds....


In such an environment, why would anybody even need a rational mind? You could go around kicking things and smashing beehives with no pesky consequences to think about. But if God created a real world with real consequences and if He created us with rational minds to deal with those circumstances, why wouldn't He expect us to use our minds?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 04-26-2018 3:51 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 11:19 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 12 of 138 (835414)
06-23-2018 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
06-23-2018 11:19 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Phat writes:

Perhaps He expects us to question, doubt, and challenge Him.


Expects us to grow up, instead of staying in the Playpen of Eden forever?

Phat writes:

Simply saving everybody, however, is too easy. Of course, that brings up the question as to why people are even lost initially, to begin with.


Remember that He's "saving" us from Himself. We're only "lost" because of Him. It's like being "lost" on a tropical island where we're reasonably happy and contented but He insists on "rescuing" us against our will.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 11:19 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:05 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 15 of 138 (835465)
06-23-2018 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
06-23-2018 3:58 PM


Re: Ringo-round and round it goes
Phat writes:

According to you its all made up anyway. So whats the difference?


I wouldn't say it's all made up - but if you're going to believe that some of it is true - e.g. Jesus - then shouldn' t you be consistent?

Phat writes:

if God is a part of reality, we will need to deal with Him eventually.


How does that follow? The Andromeda galaxy is a part of reality and I don't feel any pressing need to deal with that.

Phat writes:

And yet you also insist that humans take responsibility. Perhaps there is a communion after all!


I don't see how that follows either. We need to take responsibility for our fellow man because your God doesn't.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 3:58 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:20 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 17 of 138 (835469)
06-23-2018 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
06-23-2018 4:05 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Phat writes:

And why would being "rescued" be against our will? Are we that stubborn that we won't allow Him to help us?


What ever happened to "free will"?

Phat writes:

Are we so proud that we feel we have outgrown our belief in Him?


Yes. Is that a bad thing?

Phat writes:

Are we so stuck on our own evolved wisdom that we think we need evidence before proceeding with a belief?


Please learn the difference between evidence and belief.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:05 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:34 PM ringo has responded
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 06-28-2018 1:14 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 25 of 138 (835541)
06-24-2018 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
06-23-2018 4:20 PM


Re: Ringo-round and round it goes
Phat writes:

To me its a bit like when my Dad taught me to ride a two-wheeler. He didn't hold the bike but he was alongside me should it wobble.


If you're going to use the father analogy - and the Bible uses it so it's hard to escape - you should take it to its logical conclusion. Does the father prop up the son forever?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:20 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 06-24-2018 2:29 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 26 of 138 (835542)
06-24-2018 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
06-23-2018 4:34 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Phat writes:

I predict that there will again come a time within human history that will be so challenging and so tough that some will run back to the comfort of belief and in their own mind feel as if they are returning to God.


That's just the old no-atheists-in-foxholes ploy. In fact, I think the opposite is true: In bad times - e.g. war - people are less likely to believe in gods, not more. They are more likely to ask why a god would let such things happen. They might wish there was a god to save them but they don't really believe it will happen.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 28 of 138 (835545)
06-24-2018 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
06-24-2018 2:29 PM


Re: Ringo-round and round it goes
Phat writes:

As long as my Dad was alive He would have had my back should I ever have needed it. He did not coddle me, but he would never have left me to fend for myself should I have asked for his help.


This all leads back to Message 13 where you said, "And yet you also insist that humans take responsibility."

Wouldn't your father also insist that you take responsibility?


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 06-24-2018 2:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(3)
Message 30 of 138 (835705)
06-28-2018 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
06-28-2018 1:14 PM


Re: ringo's stubborn insistence on being left alone
Phat writes:

I again use the analogy of oxygen. One can choose not to breathe it, but it is, in fact, the only gas that will support our life.


Unless you can demonstrate that I can't live without your God, that's a poor analogy.

Phat writes:

I never figured out why you are so stubborn in regards to this growing up analogy....you seem to take pride in not needing any help whatsoever.


You could try paying attention to what I have told you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever.

It's that I can't count on your God to help me.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 06-28-2018 1:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 07-28-2018 4:14 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 36 of 138 (837258)
07-29-2018 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
07-28-2018 4:14 PM


Re: ringo's stubborn insistence on being left alone
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

It's that I can't count on your God to help me.


Why?

Huh? You tell me why He isn't helping. You tell me why that homeless guy asks me for help instead of waiting for your God to help him. You tell me why Noah had to build his own ark.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 07-28-2018 4:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 37 of 138 (837259)
07-29-2018 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
07-28-2018 4:32 PM


Re: No Apologies
Phat writes:

So if a man decides to just live his life on his own terms rather than listening to any "God" is he worshipping other gods by default?


That isn't what Deuteronomy 30 says, is it?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 07-28-2018 4:32 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 07-30-2018 3:55 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 40 of 138 (837387)
07-31-2018 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
07-30-2018 3:55 PM


Re: No Apologies
Phat writes:

Well it does mention "turning to other gods." How would one hypothetically do that today?


By listening to commentators and apologists?

Phat writes:

You used to always emphasize the message over the messenger...so what does this message say?


Build an ark. Not pray for an ark or hope for an ark in the next life. Build one now. If that includes a sore back and bashed fingers, so be it.

Phat writes:

Also is an unbeliever capable of listening to this inner Word?


The question is, are you capable?

If God was actually in communion with you, what would He be saying?


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 07-30-2018 3:55 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 68 of 138 (839220)
09-05-2018 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
09-05-2018 11:34 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

All of them are about rescuing us from our fallen condition....


The mistake you make is in thinking of "The Fall" as a historical event. It's actually a description of the imperfect condition that mankind has always been in. We don't need to be "rescued" from anything. We just need to learn how to deal with our condition. The knowledge of good and evil, which lifted us closer to God, is one step in that learning process.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 11:34 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 1:16 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 69 of 138 (839221)
09-05-2018 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
09-05-2018 11:34 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
double post

Edited by ringo, : No reason given.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 11:34 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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