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Author Topic:   R.C.Sprouls Teaching On Reformed Theology
PaulK
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Message 5 of 175 (824384)
11-27-2017 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
11-27-2017 4:31 PM


Re: Sproul unplugged
I’d note that the claim to being “Biblical” is somewhat contentious, to say the least. The Bible says many things and is interpreted as saying more. And fundamentalists show their respect for the “Word of God” by denouncing scholarship that shows that the Bible isn’t as they claim (Faith is a prime - and nasty - example).

So take that assertion with a very large pinch of salt.


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PaulK
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Member Rating: 2.6


Message 51 of 175 (824990)
12-06-2017 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
12-06-2017 10:26 AM


Re: origins
quote:

Not sure I agree. We can define probability, but strictly speaking, how does one define chance?What exactly is chance? Sproul would argue that chance in and of itself has no power. Chance is not a thing.

More accurately chance is an abstraction rather than a concrete entity.

The problem isn’t that what he says is strictly wrong about chance, but it is very likely wrong about the position he’s responding to.

Calvinism with its idea of predestination and Divine Sovereignty denies any actual role to chance - even properly understood - and that may be the point he’s getting at. But if so, he’s going the wrong way about it.


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PaulK
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Posts: 16977
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 53 of 175 (824993)
12-06-2017 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
12-06-2017 10:48 AM


Re: origins
quote:

I know that you usually dont watch videos, but in that link I provided is Sprouls lecture. It made a lot of sense to me, and I think we are touching a nerve here.

My main objection is that I have a very strong suspicion that Sproul is misrepresenting the position he opposes. At best your sig. quote deals only with people who misunderstand what chance is.


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PaulK
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Posts: 16977
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 55 of 175 (824997)
12-06-2017 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
12-06-2017 11:03 AM


Re: origins
Actually I’m far less interested in that than in why Sproul thinks it important to fight against the idea of chance as a concrete entity with causal powers. Does he identify anyone actually promoting that idea ?

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PaulK
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Posts: 16977
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Member Rating: 2.6


Message 57 of 175 (825002)
12-06-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
12-06-2017 11:23 AM


Re: origins
Then it’s probably a straw man. Whether constructed through ignorance or dishonesty doesn’t really matter.

quote:

He derides the idea that creation happens due to time, space, and chance.

But your quote doesn’t help there. Addressing a view of chance that isn’t a part of his opponent’s position doesn’t do anything to refute their position.


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PaulK
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Posts: 16977
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 60 of 175 (825006)
12-06-2017 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
12-06-2017 11:58 AM


Re: Teaching
quote:

He would argue that the author of the Bible and the author of general revelation are one and the same. Essentially his argument appears to be a philosophical one.

That’s a theological argument and a rather weird one. I don’t think that anyone who’s read the Bible without inerrantist blinders firmly on could argue that the Bible is anything other than a collection of human-penned works written by a number of different people - who don’t always agree.


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PaulK
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Message 61 of 175 (825011)
12-06-2017 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
12-06-2017 10:26 AM


Re: origins
quote:

Sproul argues, if I understand him correctly, that there is no such thing as a cosmic lottery. In reality, a lottery is determined by set probability. If we were to argue that the universe is also a universe of probability, someone or something had to set that probability.

That is not really a rational argument. It is more the old apologists trick of asserting God as the final explanation - which they may believe but assertion is not argument.

In reality the probabilities involved in the big lotteries are designed to an extent. The lotteries have to bring in a certain amount, and not too much - and they have to have some big prizes to lure people in. But those are the reasons - there is nothing in the notion of probabilities that require them to be designed.

Consider a simple raffle. Sponsors donate prizes, tickets are sold and when the time comes the sold tickets are drawn until the prizes have all been awarded. Nobody has to set the probabilities. Nobody has to say that there must be so many prizes, so many tickets sold. But the probability of any particular ticket winning a prize is determined by those things.


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PaulK
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Posts: 16977
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Message 66 of 175 (825027)
12-06-2017 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
12-06-2017 10:26 AM


Re: origins
I watched it, despite frequent stuttering of the video and it was a big pile of nothing.

He talked about an unnamed physicist talking about “gradual spontaneous generation” - which would at least give me something to check - but googling it doesn’t come up with ANY scientific results. Most of the references are to Sproul. It’s almost as if Sproul made the whole thing up.


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PaulK
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Posts: 16977
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 78 of 175 (825076)
12-07-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-07-2017 11:28 AM


Re: The School Of Hard Knox
Protestants in Catholic countries risked persecution, so did Catholics in Protestant countries. Fringe groups tended to be persecuted by the establishment everywhere.

So, who’s right ?


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PaulK
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Posts: 16977
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 87 of 175 (825244)
12-10-2017 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
12-10-2017 12:11 PM


Re: Is TULIP Biblical?
The first point is that - as we have seen - the Bible does not consistently support TULIP. Saying that TULIP is Biblical then is either of little value (if it means that the points are among the many conflicting ideas in the Bible) or requires more analysis then just quoting verses that support (or seem to support) the points.

quote:

You cant honestly expect Theologians to critically examine the Bible and speak of a "god character" and base their doctrine on the idea that humans wrote, edited, and redacted the bible. It leaves them with no working definition for the God they believe exists.

I don’t see why not - excepting quibbles. They should certainly care about the differing depictions of God in the Bible and recognise that in some cases God appears as a character in a story. And they should certainly care about the process by which the Bible came to us. That is how they should work out their ideas of God - that’s their job as theologians.


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16977
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 89 of 175 (825246)
12-10-2017 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
12-10-2017 12:56 PM


Re: Is TULIP Biblical?
quote:

So we can agree that we are working out our ideas of a God we can agree on? Or are we gonna remain uncommitted and philosophical?

I’m not a theologian or even a Christian, so I’m not likely to agree with the conclusion. But i’m up for discussion about what the Bible says, and how to evaluate it.


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PaulK
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Posts: 16977
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 93 of 175 (825305)
12-12-2017 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by New Cat's Eye
12-11-2017 10:24 PM


Re: Is TULIP Biblical?
The real problem is in allowing people to think that they ARE Elect.

Even if they were right about the concept of Election that would still be wrong.


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PaulK
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Posts: 16977
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 98 of 175 (825312)
12-12-2017 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
12-12-2017 8:20 AM


Re: John MacArthur on Election
Ah, covering up the contradiction by calling it a mystery.

First, he says that God’s choice is independent of our decisions.


God didn't draw straws; He didn't look down the corridor of time to see who would choose Him before He decided. Rather, by His sovereign will He chose who would be in the Body of Christ. The construction of the Greek verb for "chose" indicates God chose us for Himself. That means God acted totally independent of any outside influence. He made His choice totally apart from human will and purely on the basis of His sovereignty.

And


You must understand that your faith and salvation rest entirely on God's election (cf. Acts 13:48). And yet the day you came to Jesus Christ, you did so because of an internal desire—you did nothing against your will. But even that desire is God-given—He supplies the necessary faith so we can believe (Eph. 2:8).

But he also says


Those statements defining God's sovereign choice of believers are not in the Bible to cause controversy as if God's election means sinners don't make decisions. Election does not exclude human responsibility or the necessity of each person to respond to the gospel by faith

If that faith has to be God-given it is not our fault if we lack it. If God chooses to withhold it, that is his responsibility, not ours. And if the response came from us apart from God’s gift it would get us nothing, which makes the talk of responsibility a red herring.

It’s the usual story. Give God all the credit for the good things, blame humans for the bad things. But it can’t work taken to the absolute of Calvinism - either we have a real choice independent of God’s will (even if it’s only meeting a condition God chose to set up) or we’re just puppets being blamed for the puppeteer’s decisions.


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