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Author Topic:   Astronomers See Evidence of Something Unexpected in the Universe
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 86 (829286)
03-05-2018 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
03-04-2018 2:57 PM


Creation believes we can only know the laws of nature for the local region, what he calls the "fishbowl" that he concedes extends only as far as our deepest space probes, the Voyagers. He even echoed your comment on the speed of light. This is from

I think creation's argument is less extreme than nwr's position. By and large, creation restricted his supposition to the idea that time progressed differently in different parts of space. nwr seems to be going much further to say that the entire concept of the speed of light is meaningless in distant regions of space. Both approaches would seem to be ruled out by evidence unless you want to take the additional further step of saying that nothing we perceive reflects reality. Of course, that same perception problem would apply right here.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 03-04-2018 2:57 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 86 (829367)
03-06-2018 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Taq
03-06-2018 11:20 AM


GR does posit that the speed of light is the same for all observers in all reference frames.

All inertial reference frames, actually.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Taq, posted 03-06-2018 11:20 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 86 (829370)
03-06-2018 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Percy
03-06-2018 8:05 AM


NoNukes makes the point that Creation was focused on time, but Creation wasn't capable of generalizing and made his points with examples. Time was his initial example, but he moved on to say we couldn't know relativity behaved the same in deep space as it does here (Message 682), and he said we couldn't know the speed of light out there is the same as here (Message 703). He used examples rather than generalizations, but he obviously believed we can't know whether scientific laws out there are the same as here.

All of creation's conclusions were based on time not behaving the same as it does here. For example, he said that we could not know how far light traveled because we did not know the rate of time passage in those distant places. He may well have believed more than that, but at this point, you appear to be putting ideas into the rather small place that was creation's thinking on this topic.

Despite the differences, I would respond to both nwr and creation in pretty much the same way Taq has already answered. We have at least some evidence for the position that our formulation of physics is applicable in distant space, while the opposing position is just denial and supposition.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Percy, posted 03-06-2018 8:05 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ICANT, posted 03-06-2018 2:43 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 35 of 86 (829400)
03-06-2018 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ICANT
03-06-2018 2:43 PM


Re: Time
Just one of my foolish thoughts but I thought it was a given that time in space does not behave the same as it does on earth.

In one of the twin's taking a journey into space and returning that twin is supposed to have aged a lot less than the twin on earth.

You are confused and if you are looking for my help, you can stay confused. I am not going to discuss special relativity with you again. You are the one adult on earth with whom I refuse to have a dialog about physics.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ICANT, posted 03-06-2018 2:43 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 86 (829468)
03-07-2018 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by nwr
02-26-2018 8:47 PM


Talk of "the expanding universe" implicitly assumes that there is a yardstick (for measuring distance) which can be used throughout the cosmos and for all time. I cannot see any reason to believe that. We use a local yardstick defined in terms of local features. And it may well be that every location can have a local yardstick. But I cannot see any certainty that we can put these together to have a cosmos-wide yardstick. It might be that there are local distance functions at every location, but no single distance function that can be used across the entire cosmos. And there could be similar issues with the measurement of time and with the measurement of other physical properties.

The map of distance to red-shift is empirically derived and is checked against phenomena that do not require measuring the travel of light. In addition, in those few situations where we can use the speed of light to make a measurement, such as SN 1987a, we have confirmation using an additional method.

Against all that we have your proposal of a completely different universe for which we have no confirming science whatsoever. Why do you believe in your model over those of others?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by nwr, posted 02-26-2018 8:47 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 86 (829960)
03-18-2018 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by nwr
03-18-2018 12:23 AM


Convincing?
It would have been better if I had used "convincingly"

Duplicate

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by nwr, posted 03-18-2018 12:23 AM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 86 (829961)
03-18-2018 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by nwr
03-18-2018 12:23 AM


Convincing?
It would have been better if I had used "convincingly"

I think it would have been more accurate if you had chosen a phrasing that expressed a more personal sentiment. The less mysterious your comments become, the more obvious it is that we are looking at your own personal position rather than some weakness in the science. If you had made similar comments about biology rather than physics, I suspect more folks would think you sound like a creationist. I've reached that point already.

Red shifted light and CMB are not separate lines of evidence? Sounds to me like a personal choice of what to understand rather than a serious questioning of the science.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by nwr, posted 03-18-2018 12:23 AM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
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