Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9046 total)
93 online now:
PaulK (1 member, 92 visitors)
Newest Member: Dade
Post Volume: Total: 887,294 Year: 4,940/14,102 Month: 538/707 Week: 93/176 Day: 2/20 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Believe in UFOs? This editorial's for you!
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2331
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 151 of 214 (886418)
05-19-2021 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by LamarkNewAge
05-18-2021 11:42 PM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
LamarkNewAge writes:

Google

60 Minutes May 16 Graham Messick

The report, thankfully, had multiple experts focus on the issue of MULTIPLE perspective observation views/recordings of objects. High tech observation that goes beyond the already impressive (if not decisive) duo of infra red & radar observations of the same event.

Oh boy, LamarkNewAge, should have known the source. Look, it's bad enough I have to fight the Nazi menace my ancestors supposedly took care of eight decades ago, now I also have to keep the dogs of New Age naivety from nipping at my heels, something I thought was over back in 1979 when I left California for good.

Did it ever occur to you that there is an unusually high correlation between the location of Bliss, WSMR, Kirtland, Sandia, Hollis, Holloman, Lancaster, and UFO sightings?

To paraphrase the Church Lady, "Could it be...... DARPA?" aka my teachers at Belvoir back in 1984.

Now I will leave you to muse over that relatively simple sentence, since I have an appointment today with 300mg of THC via edible gummies. However, I don't want you to leave empty-handed, so let me regale you with a few local tales.

First up, the Roswell Incident, or as the stripper "Christal Powers" puts it "the Gospels of UFOology." Now, we all know their "official" take is that a "flying saucer," a term first used in reference to the lenticular cloud that forms over Mt Ranier half the time every morning, just the penultimate source of this nascent "religion.". So this "flying saucer" supposedly crashed on some ranch outside of Roswell, it had magic "space metal" and "undecipherable writing." After 1980, the story also includes "alien bodies."

Well, hate to disappoint you but the truth is more mundane, the UFO was a Helium balloon sent up by Dr. Charles B. Moore, "space metal" was the recently invented Mylar, and the "alien writings" were the tape from a children's toy factory used to tie the Helium balloon together. Read all about it here.

As to the "alien bodies" do a lit review. Show me any mention of alien bodies recovered in the Roswell incident prior to the release of Hangar 18. Do me a solid and let me know because I have been looking for any reference prior to 1980 without success since 1980.

The second incident, aka the Socorro "saucer" one, also has a mundane explanation. Here are some. Personally, I tend to favor the prototype lunar lander over the tech student prank although given my past both hypotheses are far more plausible than any "grey aliens."

As to why the DoD appears reluctant to "come clean" by telling you everything they know about DARPA, well, there is another DoD Agency called DSEC. Don't bother looking for their website, they don't have one and they don't want you to know about a damn thing. So what is DSEC? Well, what is given can also be freely taken away, as in a security clearance, that is DSEC. Fuck up and blab secrets, clearance gone, 10 years Leavenworth minimum so freedom gone too. That is why they don't speak up when the likes of you wallow in conspiracy theories.

There is a lot more to life, the universe, and everything beyond your philosophy, Horatio, than you can begin to imagine.

Disclaimer: most of the various references to the sources in the Wikipedia articles, are or were personally known by the author of this post.

Will the real skeptic please stand up - What's My Line?


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-18-2021 11:42 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by AZPaul3, posted 05-19-2021 5:12 PM anglagard has responded
 Message 154 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-19-2021 8:16 PM anglagard has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6007
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 152 of 214 (886419)
05-19-2021 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by anglagard
05-19-2021 5:03 PM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
Look, it's bad enough I have to fight the Nazi menace my ancestors supposedly took care of eight decades ago, now I also have to keep the dogs of New Age naivety from nipping at my heels, something I thought was over back in 1979 when I left California for good.

Old soldiers never die, anglagard.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by anglagard, posted 05-19-2021 5:03 PM anglagard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by anglagard, posted 05-19-2021 6:57 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2331
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.8


(2)
Message 153 of 214 (886427)
05-19-2021 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by AZPaul3
05-19-2021 5:12 PM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
AZPaul3 writes:

Old soldiers never die, anglagard.

Dammit Jim, I'm a librarian, not a doctor.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by AZPaul3, posted 05-19-2021 5:12 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1948
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 154 of 214 (886431)
05-19-2021 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by anglagard
05-19-2021 5:03 PM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
I have known of absolutely zero UFO researchers who feel that the Roswell (aka Corona, New Mexico story made up decades later by Jesse Marcel jr.) or Fire In The Sky events (Arizona 1976 story) are any actual UFO events.

(Stanton Friedman was the loner who stuck with Roswell for decades too long, perhaps due to his 1977 book Crash at Corona being held too close to his chest)

UFO researchers were extremely grateful to Philip Klass for his detective work on the Fire in THE SKY incident. Klass was an arch nemesis of UFO researchers and buffs, but all acknowledged that we would be in the dark if not for his invaluable work. The hoax is clear.

But, again, why are we still obsessing over the Piltman Hoax?

What about the scientific inquiry currently underway?

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by anglagard, posted 05-19-2021 5:03 PM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-19-2021 8:28 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2574
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 155 of 214 (886433)
05-19-2021 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by LamarkNewAge
05-19-2021 8:16 PM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
But, again, why are we still obsessing over the Piltman Hoax?

If you mean the Piltdown Hoax, who's obsessing over it? It was exposed a ling time ago.

What about the scientific inquiry currently underway?

Into Piltdown?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-19-2021 8:16 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-19-2021 9:47 PM Tanypteryx has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1948
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 156 of 214 (886438)
05-19-2021 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Tanypteryx
05-19-2021 8:28 PM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
Respond to (my) post 113, from a few years ago

(My last post before the one a few day ago)

It already anticipates the Roswell/Piltman mold I just read.

(My point is that this current AATIP/ Elizondo Senate hearing is an issue grounded in SCIENCE itself, not some historical account of speculation and/or blunders from a half century ago. This is not about the mid 1970s and not about the infectious obsessions that lasted well into the early years of the internet age)

( This is not an anthropological look back at blunders from the past. Creationism is built around surgical techniques that zoom in on the history of being wrong. The Piltman Man is a ghost from the past. Keep it in context or run the risk of being totally irrelevant in 2021)

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-19-2021 8:28 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-19-2021 10:35 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2574
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 157 of 214 (886439)
05-19-2021 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by LamarkNewAge
05-19-2021 9:47 PM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
It already anticipates the Roswell/Piltman mold I just read.

I have no clue what you are talking about. "the Roswell/Piltman mold"? I tried googling it and got nothing useful.

(My point is that this current AATIP/ Elizondo Senate hearing is an issue grounded in SCIENCE itself, not some historical account of speculation and/or blunders from a half century ago. This is not about the mid 1970s and not about the infectious obsessions that lasted well into the early years of the internet age)

Still no clue.

( This is not an anthropological look back at blunders from the past. Creationism is built around surgical techniques that zoom in on the history of being wrong. The Piltman Man is a ghost from the past. Keep it in context or run the risk of being totally irrelevant in 2021)

What does creationism have to do with UFOs? And what does Piltman Man have to do with anything? Once again, are you talking about Piltdown Man and what does that have to do with UFOs?

I cannot understand a single idea you are trying to communicate. I'm beginning to think you are messing with me.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-19-2021 9:47 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-19-2021 11:27 PM Tanypteryx has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1948
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 158 of 214 (886440)
05-19-2021 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Tanypteryx
05-19-2021 10:35 PM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
( My phone is misspelling the crap out of my words. I lost a long post correcting the spelling errors) it deleted.

Attempt again:

Here is a short sociological

Guess which televised show had the first ever scene that featured a black man in bed with a white woman.

THe hint is that the male was James Earl Ray.

What was the driver of the previously taboo presentation? Was it Captain James T Kirk, of the USS Enterprise (who was featured in a Star Trek episode doing the unprecedented: kissing a black woman, Lt. Aurora)?

Nope.

It was actually the 1960's couple, from New Hampshire, Betty & Barney Hill, who had a UFO abduction experience.

It led to a 1974 movie, that was watched by a significant percentage of Americans.

It was viral and pre internet st the same time.

It was undoubtedly the motivation for the 1976 Fire In The Sky hoax( a long with the National Inquire million dollar offer for a good UFO story that facilitated the lie).

It was surely the inspiration for the 1977 Stanton Friedman book, Crash At Corona (the town near Roswell) , which, in proper turn,led to further embellishments.

Kinda like the mad old Piltdown firestorm.

Now we have creationism making hay out of the P Man hoax, and the ideological cousins, of creationism, making hay - while the sun blinds - out of the old Roswell sensation.

Who are these close relatives of creationists?

They seem to be the large chunk of uncritical minded UFO skeptics? They might fashion themselves as critics but there is no way one can be scientifically "critical" if there is only a selective set of incidents that are used as subjects of investigation. That is problem number 1.

Problemo Numero Uno is the pathetic apparatus.

It gets much worse when one notices that Roswell is about as deep as the dig gets (that and ball lightening, as Klass used to use as the excuse for everything, in the 1960s, before he dropped the angle completely)

The problem is the mockery of the scientific process generally, and the failure, on the part of the UFO skeptics, to openly disclose the pseudo scientific nature of their approach.

What is your solution to the problem of unscientific techniques that UFO skeptics bring to prevent scientific inquiry?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-19-2021 10:35 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-20-2021 12:40 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1948
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 159 of 214 (886441)
05-19-2021 11:50 PM


Note: the public is watching and gets influenced by the conduct of debate sides
This UFO issue might get a lot of attention, so I ask the skeptical community to avoid slight of hand techniques BUT INSTEAD present arguments using a scientific methodology that will be mindful of the teachable moment this opportunity presents to the larger society.

The public deserves debate that is not only we worthy of the name "science", but one that respects the public generally.


  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2574
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 160 of 214 (886442)
05-20-2021 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by LamarkNewAge
05-19-2021 11:27 PM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
Attempt again:

Here is a short sociological

Guess which televised show had the first ever scene that featured a black man in bed with a white woman.

THe hint is that the male was James Earl Ray.

What was the driver of the previously taboo presentation? Was it Captain James T Kirk, of the USS Enterprise (who was featured in a Star Trek episode doing the unprecedented: kissing a black woman, Lt. Aurora)?

Nope.

It was actually the 1960's couple, from New Hampshire, Betty & Barney Hill, who had a UFO abduction experience.

It led to a 1974 movie, that was watched by a significant percentage of Americans.

It was viral and pre internet st the same time.

Kinda like the mad old Piltdown firestorm.

You have an uncanny knack for trying to connect completely disconnected subjects to make some sort of obscure point that completely alludes me.

Kinda like the mad old Piltdown firestorm.

Now we have creationism making hay out of the P Man hoax, and the ideological cousins, of creationism, making hay - while the sun blinds - out of the old Roswell sensation.

Who are these close relatives of creationists?

What Piltdown firestorm? "Now we have creationism making hay out of the P Man hoax" What are you talking about? Who are you talking about?

They seem to be the large chunk of uncritical minded UFO skeptics? They might fashion themselves as critics but there is no way one can be scientifically "critical" if there is only a selective set of incidents that are used as subjects of investigation. That is problem number 1.

Who are uncritical minded UFO skeptics and what do you want them to investigate? Are they qualified to investigate whatever you want investigated?

The problem is the mockery of the scientific process generally, and the failure, on the part of the UFO skeptics, to openly disclose the pseudo scientific nature of their approach.

Wait, are these skeptics trying to prove that UFOs are extraterrestrial or that they are imaginary?

Why don't you just tell us the "pseudo scientific nature of their approach"?

What is your solution to the problem of unscientific techniques that UFO skeptics bring to prevent scientific inquiry?

I'm sorry, but I still don't understand the problem. What unscientific techniques are you talking about? How is scientific enquiry prevented.and why is it prevented?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-19-2021 11:27 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-20-2021 1:01 AM Tanypteryx has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1948
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 161 of 214 (886443)
05-20-2021 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Tanypteryx
05-20-2021 12:40 AM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
Luis Elizondo says that the government has much more evidence of UFOs, via video ( in addition to other detection methods), than what has already been disclosed.

The UFO skeptics are going to be ( hopefully) forced to deal with the evidence that matters, not the "evidence" that does not matter.

The actual evidence ( as opposed to the UFO skeptic's selected "evidence" which is designed to delay the scientific process for the indefinite future) is what will be the subject of scientific inquiry .

Science was dealt a setback around 300 to 500 CE, and there was a dark age for 1000 years. Science seems to move forward - eventually. It is a question of how long it takes.

Now or later?

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-20-2021 12:40 AM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-20-2021 1:12 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded
 Message 167 by anglagard, posted 05-20-2021 3:55 PM LamarkNewAge has responded
 Message 168 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 05-20-2021 8:08 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2574
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 162 of 214 (886444)
05-20-2021 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by LamarkNewAge
05-20-2021 1:01 AM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
Oh, OK, now I get it.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-20-2021 1:01 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by AZPaul3, posted 05-20-2021 3:20 AM Tanypteryx has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6007
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 163 of 214 (886446)
05-20-2021 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Tanypteryx
05-20-2021 1:12 AM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
Oh, OK, now I get it.

You do?

Maybe I need more wine.

To me this is just a dis-enjumbulated mess.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-20-2021 1:12 AM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-20-2021 12:39 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2574
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 164 of 214 (886452)
05-20-2021 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by AZPaul3
05-20-2021 3:20 AM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
You do?

Sure, conspiracy theorist who doesn't know jackshit about science or bugfuck about evidence.

Maybe I need more wine.

There's always need for more wine.

To me this is just a dis-enjumbulated mess.

To me, too. A total failure to communicate.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by AZPaul3, posted 05-20-2021 3:20 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by AZPaul3, posted 05-20-2021 12:47 PM Tanypteryx has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6007
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 165 of 214 (886453)
05-20-2021 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Tanypteryx
05-20-2021 12:39 PM


Re: Big news on UFO disclosure by U.S. government (see 60 minutes 5/16/2021 report)
To me, too. A total failure to communicate.

Thank you.

Sometimes it's hard to tell in this place if it's the post that slipped a knot or if I'm having another senior moment.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-20-2021 12:39 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-20-2021 1:17 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021