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Author Topic:   Believe in UFOs? This editorial's for you!
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 61 of 139 (864476)
10-11-2019 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by NosyNed
10-11-2019 5:14 PM


Re: Real sightings
Yeah, Venus has caused a lot of trouble.

In WWII, an Army Air Force control tower gave her permission to land.

In the late 19th century, a train pulled over onto a side track and waited for her to go by.

(both instances from an essay by Arthur C. Clarke)

An interesting thing is that Venus can be visible in the daytime -- many people won't believe you when you say the same for the moon, so even fewer know that you can see Venus. However, you have to be looking at just the right place, so when that happens it's startling and people jump to conclusions.

BTW, when you're out in the countryside at night away from city lights and the moon is not out, those lights you see moving across the sky are satellites. Yes, you can see satellites with the naked eye under the right viewing conditions.

Arthur C. Clarke also described how the refraction of sunlight at the right angle through a flock of the right-size birds can cause strange visual effects which have also triggered UFO reports.


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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6827
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 62 of 139 (864478)
10-11-2019 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by dwise1
10-11-2019 5:28 PM


Re: Real sightings
BTW, when you're out in the countryside at night away from city lights and the moon is not out, those lights you see moving across the sky are satellites. Yes, you can see satellites with the naked eye under the right viewing conditions.

We see them whenever we look up on a clear, moonless night.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


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Faith
Member
Posts: 33699
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 63 of 139 (864479)
10-11-2019 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by AnswersInGenitals
10-11-2019 12:56 PM


Re: Who will save us from the true demons?
But it is religions that throughout history have used fear of demonic manifestations to subjugate the populace (and to torture and murder any who disagreed with them). -

Oh nonsense. The biblical account pretty clearly points to fallen angels, demons that is, as the deities themselves, of most of the world's religions, from Molech to Allah and all the little tribes everywhere, including all the hundreds or is it millions of "gods" of India. "What the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils" said Paul somewhere, I'll look it up eventually. So if any of these UFOs or UAPs or whatever they are turn out to be real phenomena that get interpreted as extraterrestrial visitors, the most likely interpretation is that they are those very "gods" masquerading in a new form.

The description hyroglyphx gave in Message 27, but even more so the film he embedded at the bottom at that post, sounds like some real phenomena that can't be explained in natural terms.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 53 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 10-11-2019 12:56 PM AnswersInGenitals has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 33699
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 64 of 139 (864480)
10-11-2019 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by LamarkNewAge
10-11-2019 11:57 AM


Re: There is voluminous research from top government agencies and people.
So what is the "evil" part you are so concerned about?
Compared to what "good", exactly?
What is the big conspiracy?

You really do inhabit some totally other planet than I do. I didn't say one thing about good and evil or a conspiracy or anything. All I said was that what are taken for UFOs are most likely fallen angels/demons because they behave like the creatures of folklore the UFO expert Jacques Vallee describes in his books, and not like anything physical.

AbE: HOWEVER, if this is the case we're talking major deception, which doesn't bode anything good for humanity.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-11-2019 11:57 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-12-2019 12:48 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33699
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 65 of 139 (864482)
10-11-2019 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by AZPaul3
10-11-2019 5:02 PM


Re: Lions and Tigers and Cyber phantoms
You and Faith should go on a date.

And ruin her fantasy? You're daft, man.

'Tis true, most cyber phantoms can't bear the light of real day. We'd probably both turn and run screaming in the opposite direction if we met, though I suspect you'd run faster..

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 522
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 66 of 139 (864483)
10-11-2019 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Faith
10-11-2019 5:48 PM


Re: Who will save us from the true demons?
Uhh, thank you Faith - you have just proven my statement. Religions create demons, devils, Molechs, etc., etc. to frighten people into subjugation. Even parents do this to control their young children with visions of “The Bogeyman”. (Why are there no female or transgender Bogeys?) Apparently, two edits of your post aren’t sufficient to make them logical. Maybe try six or seven.

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 Message 63 by Faith, posted 10-11-2019 5:48 PM Faith has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 33699
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 67 of 139 (864486)
10-11-2019 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by AnswersInGenitals
10-11-2019 7:02 PM


Re: Who will save us from the true demons?
Various religions, Buddhism for one, Hinduism for another, have female spirits, devas or something like that. Isn't Kali remale? The gods and goddesses of Greece and Rome were both sexes. The Biblical description has them all male, because they don't reproduce I'd guess and male is kind of the default condition.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 33699
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 68 of 139 (864487)
10-11-2019 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by AnswersInGenitals
10-11-2019 7:02 PM


Re: Who will save us from the true demons?
What if they're real? I guess that is beyond all possibility?

AbE: Oh, and is the prospect of visitors from outer space with a stupendously advanced technology less scary?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 71 by AZPaul3, posted 10-12-2019 12:46 AM Faith has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1576
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 69 of 139 (864490)
10-12-2019 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Faith
10-11-2019 5:48 PM


Re: Who will save us from the true demons?
quote:
Oh nonsense. The biblical account pretty clearly points to fallen angels, demons that is, as the deities themselves, of most of the world's religions, from Molech to Allah and all the little tribes everywhere, including all the hundreds or is it millions of "gods" of India. "What the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils" said Paul somewhere, I'll look it up eventually. So if any of these UFOs or UAPs or whatever they are turn out to be real phenomena that get interpreted as extraterrestrial visitors, the most likely interpretation is that they are those very "gods" masquerading in a new form.

Look at the context.

Paul was in a religion that rejected ALL sacrifice and meat eating.

The Hebrew Gospel of Matthew had Jesus vocally speaking against the eating of the Passover lamb.

The Hindu religion was already rejecting (beginning to) sacrificing of animals.

Ashoka (THE BUDDIST RULER OF INDIA) had edicts that OUTLAWED sacrifice and they were found in the Aramaic language in Afghanistan.

Between mighty Rome and India was Zoroastrian Persia, which had a founder that did not like the sacrifices and the pain they brought to animals. Zoroaster was vegetarian himself. His later followers were not.

Paul was dealing with Judaism, which allowed certain animals to be eaten (if prepared properly), and the transition to Christianity. He was literally saying (1 Corinthians chapters 8-10) he did not think God cared for animal's suffering (chapter 9), but it was a "sin" against Jesus to offend anybody's conscience by eating meat (chapter 8, and see Romans 14).

Chapter 10 had the issue of meat eating during the time the Temple was still standing (with sacrifices still going), and Paul was dealing with the complicated TRANSITION PERIOD.

Paul, was attempting to "be all things to all people" (1 Cor 9:19), and was perhaps seeing a limited time-frame when & where meat could be eaten, with the transition to full vegetarianism not quite present yet. With a still limited amount of the world's population having knowledge of Christians very existence, and in an area of meat-eaters , he was saying food that was not prepared according to Kosher laws could be eaten if there were no observers aware of what was happening.

Chapter 10 was discussing a meat-market full of meat-eaters and 100% non-Jewish people (gentiles). The mandatory vegetarianism was not quite locked in yet, it seems.

He was speaking AFTER THE APOSTOLIC COUNCIL OF ACTS 15 which had rules which correspond to Jewish laws which include opposition to eating meat prepared by gentiles. The Mishna was an attempt to implement the Law of Moses with integrity. (Though there were additional laws of preparation which did overturn the tearing off of a chickens head in Moses' Torah, and the elaborate Shechita preparation laws probably had to do with animals not feeling pain or even noticing the cut)

https://dash.harvard.edu/...m/handle/1/8852091/Gurtman05.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shechita

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin

See this 32 minute video when the cutting is not done correctly.

https://www.peta.org/features/agriprocessors/

See Temple Grandin reference in Shechita thread.

There were developing rules in the developing Judaism during Paul's period. Plus the Christian developments. Paul was probably making a bunch of contradictory moves in a complicated EARLY period. Eat meat for a limited time with no observers and no awareness by people concerned. I don't think Paul ever told people to eat pork, though it is possible he did if there is no "unclean food" (Romans 14:14 "there is nothing unclean in itself") and the mandatory vegetarianism wasn't quite up and running (until the Temple destruction and sacrifices ceased, with sacrifices being the only reason for meat eating according to the early Christian sources).

Paul lived in the first century, but most 21st century Christians see the Christian movement as moving from some meat restrictions (early-mid first century) to total allowance of any type of meat consumption toward the end of the first Christian century.

I feel Paul was moving in the direction of the larger Christian movement, as I understand it: mandatory vegetarianism.

Everybody agrees there was a transition. (even Jewish Christians might have still been sacrificing animals, though I wonder if the all of the early Jewish Christians were the vegetarian Nazarenes/Nasoreans who sacrificed non-animals or included many other sacrificing-Jews who might have sacrificed animals)

Paul was something of a yo-yo though (think of the toy that goes all over and back again, then in a different direction). He was all over the place on what he, himself, allowed. He said as much in 1 Cor 8-10. He might have cast a wide angle of his own rules (and allowances) and he probably contradicted Jesus' (chosen?) successor: James.

Paul might have yo-yo-ED around so the straight line from Kosher restrictions toward vegetarianism temporarily saw lesser restrictions, though there is evidence (in his very words) that he was ultimately for practical vegetarianism.

Paul was making his point that under certain circumstances, idol meat can be eaten (if nobody knows what it is, including the eater). He was saying the Roman Gods do not exist so they are not important enough to worry about.


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 Message 63 by Faith, posted 10-11-2019 5:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1576
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 70 of 139 (864491)
10-12-2019 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
10-11-2019 8:21 PM


Re: Who will save us from the true demons?
quote:
Various religions, Buddhism for one, Hinduism for another, have female spirits, devas or something like that.

Devi is feminine

Deva is masculine

Deva is translated Deus in Tobit.

The Zoroastrian religion says Devas are evil.

Tobit has a Zoroastrian Deva mentioned which kills cows in the Iranian religion (The Jewish, and later Christian, version of the Deva kills husbands).


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 Message 67 by Faith, posted 10-11-2019 8:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4740
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 71 of 139 (864492)
10-12-2019 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Faith
10-11-2019 8:23 PM


Throwing Chunks
is the prospect of visitors from outer space with a stupendously advanced technology less scary?

Since demons and devils, ghosts and gods, don't exist there can be no comparison.

Besides, as beings lost in time as well as in space, alien visitors to Earth are a fantasy.

But let's say *they do* come here.

As a product of evolution they would have had a violent thing-eat-thing past just as we. But to build an interstellar spacecraft would take an expenditure of resources, and therefore a cooperation across a large planetary society like never experienced by humans. Note how we have congregated into larger and larger cooperative groups throughout our history to the point where now we even contemplate a world wide social structure. Imagine what human society, if we survive all of our attempts to go extinct, could be like in another 5000 years.

I believe that any species capable of such resource gathering, expenditure and production to build interstellar spaceships would have found a way to overcome their violent evolutionary propensities and would know an enlightenment we can only dream to achieve. They would know violence achieves nothing especially when dealing with an inferior grade of really stupid monkeys.

Second, there is nothing on this planet a space faring alien culture with such advanced technology could covet that they cannot achieve in greater abundance mining a few specs of rock in our Oort cloud, or anywhere else in the galaxy, with more efficiency and without having to be bothered with some still violent, to the point of bonkers, local natives and their pesky infectious bugs.

So, no, I do not fear ET's arrival. We wouldn't be anything more than a curiosity stop on their way somewhere else. And the only reason they would stop by would be to see who was putting out so much god-damned EM noise. Damned kids.

Besides, we would probably appear as disgustingly abhorrent to them as they would appear to us.

Ewww! That's human? Gross!! Let's leave before we all start throwing chunks!

And the other besides:

If an alien starship shows up here it most probably won't be manned (?) ... uh ... aliened ... but will be cybernetic.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Faith, posted 10-11-2019 8:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1576
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 72 of 139 (864493)
10-12-2019 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
10-11-2019 6:01 PM


Re: There is voluminous research from top government agencies and people.
quote:
You really do inhabit some totally other planet than I do. I didn't say one thing about good and evil or a conspiracy or anything. All I said was that what are taken for UFOs are most likely fallen angels/demons because they behave like the creatures of folklore the UFO expert Jacques Vallee describes in his books, and not like anything physical.

You were talking about people sacrificing children to these "Gods" earlier.

(I did not make to much of it at the time, since it was some fantastic view you had of the past)

Now you have been saying they are going to pretend to be aliens.

You made some vague comment about some sort of worldwide deception, and that was what I responded to.

Your previous presentation seemed to be saying it would involve a lot of evil things, and by me putting evil in quotation marks ("evil"), I should have used italics instead.

I thought you felt humans would be in on the deception, so that was the conspiracy part.

Amazing you don't offer any attempt to outline why you have been making such alarming commentary about demons and deception.

Except:

quote:
AbE: HOWEVER, if this is the case we're talking major deception, which doesn't bode anything good for humanity.

So this whole thing went from being a major calamity (to not only YOU the "demon"-fighter but also for a presently disinterested mankind) to just an inconvenient case of bad jock-itch (or a mosquito in the house)? Nothing too big, now? Just nothing very helpful? Like a fly in the house.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 10-11-2019 6:01 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 10-12-2019 1:12 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33699
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 73 of 139 (864496)
10-12-2019 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by LamarkNewAge
10-12-2019 12:48 AM


Re: There is voluminous research from top government agencies and people.
You can't just respond to different posts of mine from different contexts and expect me to know what you are talking about.

The Old Testament talks about various demon gods of the nations that surrounded ancient Israel, and I think it was Molech that commanded the sacrifice of babies, and this became an issue when Israel started following the practice.

But the idea that demons could be the UFOs comes from the conversation in this thread where I talk about Jacques Vallee's study of the UFO phenomena and describes them as similar to some creatures of folklore the way they appeare and disappear and move in ways physical things can't move. Since UFOs act in a similar way he made that connection. All I did was apply the biblical concept of demons to what he thought of as many different kinds of spirits. He could be right about that, but the Bible only mentions fallen angels.

I also mentioned that demons are the gods found all over the world after the Fall. Like those described in the OT I mention above.

AND of course they figure in the New Testament, mostly possessing people.

Best I can do I think. Just ignore me if you want.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 72 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-12-2019 12:48 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-12-2019 7:22 PM Faith has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 74 of 139 (864498)
10-12-2019 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Theodoric
10-11-2019 5:45 PM


Re: Real sightings
We see them whenever we look up on a clear, moonless night.

Like I said, under the right viewing conditions. Orange County, Calif, has quite a bit of light pollution, so we have to travel a ways to get those viewing conditions.

For example, I was on a campout at a Boy Scout reservation in a canyon just north of Brea. In the middle of the night, I needed to take a short hike to the latrine (on campouts, I made it a habit to avoid using my flashlight as much as possible). It was a clear, moonless night and just the starlight was enough to illuminate the campsite such that I could see everything. Thinking back, though, it was very likely the light pollution from Brea and Fullerton spilling over the ridge that gave me my nightlight, but it was still a neat experience.

I grew up in central Orange County, so my first Boy Scout campout, which was in the high desert, was the first time I had a clear unpolluted view of the sky and I was overwhelmed with all the stars. When my older son was in Cub Scouts, we went on a family campout at Lost Valley, a Boy Scout campsite near Anza Borrega. I told him about my first experience and how neat it was. But when we got there and night fell, the moon was out keeping me from delivering on my promise, so he just rolled his eyes and said, "Yeah, right, Dad, whatever you say." Then in the middle of the night, he woke me up saying that he had to go to the latrine. As we walked across the gravel (the moon had set by then, BTW) I suddenly noticed that I could only hear my own footsteps. Looking back I saw my son standing there motionless looking up at the stars in awe of what he was seeing -- all he could manage to mumble was, "You were right, Dad."

A few years later I was the effective Webelos leader (couldn't be officially because of BSA's idjitotic practice of religious discrimination) and our Webelos den participated in a Lost Valley camp weekend for Cub Scouts. Looking forward to holding a stargazing session with the boys (and having studied up for it), I saw for the first night that the moon would was out. Taking note of when the moon rose, I applied my astrology training from decades before to perform some mental calculations, from which I estimated that each night the moon would rise about 45 minutes later. That meant that on our last night there we could have our stargazing session before the moon showed up to spoil it, which we did. During that stargazing, we also watched several satellites transiting across the sky.

ABE
As I recall, part of my reluctance to use my flashlight was to preserve my night vision and, I guess, to better take in nature and my surroundings, a bend I've always had.

At that last campout weekend I mention above, while walking through our camp area under ambient light, I noticed a point of light under a mesquite bush, so I investigated. Resorting to my flashlight for a couple seconds, I saw that that glow corresponded to one end of a larva, a small grub. An example of bioluminescence. Over the weekend, I spotted several more. On the way back from the final night's campfire ceremony and on the way to our stargazing session, I spotted one in an embankment next to the trail and pointed it out to our boys.

Edited by dwise1, : Tweaking the first part slightly.
Also an ABE


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Faith
Member
Posts: 33699
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 75 of 139 (864523)
10-12-2019 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by AZPaul3
10-12-2019 12:46 AM


Re: Throwing Chunks
Since demons and devils, ghosts and gods, don't exist there can be no comparison.

The testimony of millions means nothing of course.

Besides, as beings lost in time as well as in space, alien visitors to Earth are a fantasy.

I agree, but I think people have seen something real that isn't explainable by anything normal or natural, that leads to this interpretation. And again I think that kind of experience is the case described in the video posted by Hyroglyphx back in Message 27. There are experiences that can be easily enough explained away but I don't think those can.

Having denied the reality of spiritual entities, however, shuts out the most likely interpretation IMO. Jacques Vallee had an unusual ability to recognize the symptoms that others miss.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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