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Author Topic:   Believe in UFOs? This editorial's for you!
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4740
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 106 of 139 (864632)
10-13-2019 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
10-13-2019 6:43 PM


Re: Throwing Chunks
Yes. Of course they are, My Dear. And the moon is made of green cheese.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 10-13-2019 6:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1576
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 107 of 139 (864635)
10-13-2019 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
10-13-2019 6:40 PM


Re: Flying Saucer Review vs. Dr. Stanton Friedman (exotic UFO material alert!)
quote:
Hey LNA,
I read over your posts but they are too much, I just can't figure out what to respond to. After all your writing I don't even know for sure if you believe in UFOs or what you believe about them.

UFOs are always going to be a difficult thing to reach a conclusion on. We do have secret technology constantly being developed by the government. Then there is the major issue of (much more confusion) aliens verses entities from another dimension. Extraterrestrial biological entities (EBE or ET) confuse the issue, and all the more so since there are so many reports of "grays" and such. UFOs should be seen as a separate issue from EBE stories.

That is the issue of confusion - major confusion. People are confused when they jump to conclusions about what is the issue that really needs to be looked at.

A story I linked (on FOX News) has Elizondo telling us that a better understand of physics (than presently possessed) could help explain UFOs and what is happening.

This is an issue of those who embrace science verses those who want to simply deny.

It is all about accepting science and the scientific process.

There is the issue of solid objects (as opposed to simple visible light points) moving in a way that violates the laws of physics.

One can accept the challenge the issue presents or one can be a DENIER.

2 choices.

The deniers will attempt to mix older incidents that had witness making mistakes (like mistaking objects with reflections coming off of a person's glasses, or perspective-based optical illusions among viewers/witnesses) in with the incidents that had multiple witnesses viewing objects from multiple-perspective/observation points which were (essentially) scientifically verified by advanced detection instruments.

That is one point.

Now the artifact (debris from a larger object) issue:

It is about whether we can expect governmental transparency.

The issue of actual artifacts being "too good to be true" means that we should be able to expect the government to allow us to see the location of the artifact's discovery (it would require retracing multiple steps back to see where the initial possession of the object came from)and get as much information - from the government - about the incident that accompanied the debris.

(the issue of UFO buffs chattering about the inter dimensional hypothesis (IDH OR IH) verses the ETH should not distract from our demands for an accountable government that serves the people)

This endless battle for knowing what the government is doing (with prohibitive $25,000 FOIA requests) can do nothing but distress those who want to believe in a good government that serves its people.

The artifacts are a product of a secretive government, and we should, in a different world than we seem to inhabit, expect cooperation from our government.

And can't we wonder why we are in the sad situation where we need a private group to send debris to laboratories just to find out what our government (at some level) already knows? Why do we have to look at this as a big "breakthrough", if we are able to somehow find out - through a private UFO group paying multiple labs to test debris that the government probably ALREADY knows about - that recovered debris displays advanced physical properties that are somewhat beyond what is presently seen by the public?

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 10-13-2019 6:40 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33699
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 108 of 139 (864636)
10-13-2019 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by AZPaul3
10-13-2019 6:36 PM


The delusion about delusions
I have religious nutsoids in my family....

Curious: Catholic?

I know psychotic delusions when I read them ...

Na, I meant real psychotic delusionals. I've known … well, one. There's a continual sense of something being "off," even sometimes on the scary side, not just the occasional statement of a belief you don't share.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by AZPaul3, posted 10-13-2019 6:36 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by AZPaul3, posted 10-13-2019 10:20 PM Faith has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1576
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 109 of 139 (864637)
10-13-2019 9:51 PM


WE HAVE ALL BEEN HERE BEFORE. (title of an article section in journal)
I found a long article (about Elizondo's amazing effort) from:

Issues in Science and Technology
VOL. XXXV, NO. 3, SPRING 2019

https://issues.org/ufos-wont-go-away/

The above journal article (in addition to being the longest on Elizondo's big push) has a lot of details that won't be found in any other article.

Here is a site that promotes a super-skeptical angle on Elizondo's UFO story:

quote:
THE MEDIA LOVES THIS UFO EXPERT WHO SAYS HE WORKED FOR AN OBSCURE PENTAGON PROGRAM. DID HE?

Keith Kloor

June 1 2019, 6:00 a.m.

ONE OF THE first images in the opening episode of the new History Channel show “Unidentified: Inside America’s UFO Investigation” is a 2017 headline from the New York Times projected on a flickering screen: “Glowing Auras and ‘Black Money’: The Pentagon’s Mysterious UFO Program.”

https://theintercept.com/...y-channel-luis-elizondo-pentagon


Talk about skeptical!

At least they are talking.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1576
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 110 of 139 (864638)
10-13-2019 10:05 PM


Guess what Project I was just tipped off on? (conspiracy stuff)
My friend just asked me what I was reading (I was on the Issues in Science and Technology site), and I said "UFO disclosures" and issues (not covered in what I was reading but I quickly mentioned) about the Navy trying to get its seamen to report UFOs.

My answer lasted about 4 seconds.

He quickly told me to google PROJECT BLUE BEAM.

(He was in a hurry and went home)

I only have seen the google page, and have not read about it yet.

But is does seem to be a conspiracy theory that promotes the idea of UFOs (?) created by human technology to "trick people".

(btw, this was my ethnic Mexican friend I mentioned once in another thread. He does favor "open borders" actually, but I said he was anti-immigration in a post about other stuff. I can't find the thread. I thought he did not support "open borders" - based on various theories he promotes. I wanted to correct myself, I suppose now is the time. I need to ask him if he agrees with the spirit of these conspiracy theories he is so full of. The seem to be designed to promote nationalism. This guy supports Trump but is for open borders.)

PROJECT BLUE BEAM type conspiracy theories seem to be motivated by nationalism.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4740
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 111 of 139 (864639)
10-13-2019 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Faith
10-13-2019 9:36 PM


Re: The delusion about delusions
Catholic?

No.

For my sister, one of those fundamentalist mega-churches in New England. The kind where everyone waves their hands in the air and does the jitterbug in the aisles to loud thundering christian rock while the pastor dances on stage thumping his bible and shouting incoherent praises to Jee-susss!

Another, a small progressive Lutheran group that met in my Uncle's home twice a week to pray and decide which abortion clinic, school or whore house to go picket next.

Finally a Methodist Minister uncle in Chicago who ministered to the drug addicts, whores, prisons and hospices. A big ol' white man walking the halls of the projects giving fist bumps to the gangbangers. He was my favorite.

You want psychotic delusion just go spend some time with any of them, especially my uncle in Chi-town. His flock was serious delusional.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 10-13-2019 9:36 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Faith, posted 10-13-2019 10:48 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33699
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 112 of 139 (864640)
10-13-2019 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by AZPaul3
10-13-2019 10:20 PM


Re: The delusion about delusions
Wow, you really were surrounded in your family. I'm familiar by now with pretty much all those versions but none of it was ever in my family. My own choice these days is a fairly sedate Calvinist Baptist church, although I do like to wave my arms in the air as you put it, because of my earlier experience in the charismatic churches. It's just emotional though, it's not delusional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by AZPaul3, posted 10-13-2019 10:20 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1576
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 113 of 139 (864680)
10-14-2019 7:03 PM


Elizondo seems to get past the anecdotal stuff. That what we should appreciate.
Reading the anecdotal stories about clouds below airplanes (and all the confused perspectives and optical illusions to go along with it), and interior lights reflecting on person's reading glasses (great story that I am glad to hear, for darn certain), I REALLY HAVE TO APPRECIATE THE SCIENTIFIC MINDSET OF LUIS ELIZONDO.

I don't diminish the value of personal stories, but they tend to be a red herring technique used by deniers (deniers of science and the scientific process). These creationist style "Piltdown Hoax"-esque anecdotal PAST stories are cool to hear, but they often do serve to functions as a major distraction from the stuff actually being looked at by the scientifically minded 2019 folks. It is all about the context of the information, I suppose.

I am, actually, cool with it all (the stories are awesome, frankly), but it is not part of the scientific inquiry currently underway.

Just like I don't mind a good conspiracy theory, especially if it has some sort of evidence (Operation Blue Beam is pure fiction).

I like to hear why people promote the theories and stories they do. I also admire those who don't like the conclusions of some theory, but they feel the evidence demands our attention (Again, Operation Blue Beam is pure fiction).

('UFOs are demons" is, also, quite a weak theory, minus a lot of explaining and special pleading)

Luis Elizondo looks beyond the "Piltdown Hoax" stuff the deniers like to peddle.

I think we all should appreciate his mindset.


  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 114 of 139 (864683)
10-14-2019 8:00 PM


Proof Positive of No Non-Terrestrials at Area 51!
If we did have aliens and their spacecraft at Area 51, Trump would have tweeted out about it as soon as he was in office.

No tweets! No aliens!


Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by AZPaul3, posted 10-14-2019 8:52 PM dwise1 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4740
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 115 of 139 (864684)
10-14-2019 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by dwise1
10-14-2019 8:00 PM


Re: Proof Positive of No Non-Terrestrials at Area 51!
Trump would have tweeted out about it as soon as he was in office.

That's why they never told him. Just like the fake launch codes they gave him.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by dwise1, posted 10-14-2019 8:00 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by dwise1, posted 10-14-2019 8:57 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 116 of 139 (864685)
10-14-2019 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by AZPaul3
10-14-2019 8:52 PM


Re: Proof Positive of No Non-Terrestrials at Area 51!
You mean the codes aren't still 0 0 0 0 0 0 ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by AZPaul3, posted 10-14-2019 8:52 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by AZPaul3, posted 10-14-2019 9:44 PM dwise1 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4740
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 117 of 139 (864686)
10-14-2019 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by dwise1
10-14-2019 8:57 PM


Re: Proof Positive of No Non-Terrestrials at Area 51!
Yeah, they are but The Cheeto-In-Chief was given 777777 Cause he wanted a lucky number. The Generals may be mean but they aren't stupid.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by dwise1, posted 10-14-2019 8:57 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by dwise1, posted 10-14-2019 10:56 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 118 of 139 (864687)
10-14-2019 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by AZPaul3
10-14-2019 9:44 PM


Re: Proof Positive of No Non-Terrestrials at Area 51!
Today I Found Out: For Nearly 20 Years the Nuclear Launch Code at all Minuteman Silos in the United States Was 00000000

And now you know the rest of the story.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by AZPaul3, posted 10-14-2019 9:44 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 522
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 119 of 139 (864944)
10-18-2019 5:06 PM


Optical illusions and optical delusions
One of the most boring jobs in the world is being an airline pilot. Planes fly themselves. Even when not on autopilot an airplane will maintain a steady heading and altitude. Yes, pilots do have to get involved during takeoffs and landings and rough air will create some excitement, but 99% of the time the pilot just sits there and stares out the window. During night flights and flying over the ocean, this can get very hypnotic. (Perhaps airlines should require their pilots on long flights to do a barrel roll or loop every 15 minutes to break up the monotony.) These conditions are ripe for visual misjudgments and optical illusions. And the human mind has evolved a very strong ‘fill in the blanks’ tendency, very helpful when you hear a rustling in the bushes and can’t tell if its the wind or a lion.

As a previous poster noted, when while piloting an airplane at night and seeing a small circular light, he couldn’t tell if it was large and far away or small and close. But he still concludes it was the size of a car and 150 feet away. Added to this visual inaccuracy, there are real visual effects that have been highly distorted by physical phenomenon, what I’ll call optical delusions. A well documented example of these is the fata morgana. And we’ve all seen what look like water on a road, but was just the sun glancing off the asphalt at a low angle.

But what about those radar detections that confirm the visual sightings and see the same thing? It’s important to remember that you never actually see any thing, never see any stuff, and never see any process. What your eye detects are photons reflected or emitted by that thing, stuff, or process. And those photons reach your eye after traveling through some medium that can bend, reflect, or otherwise distort those photons creating what I have called optical delusions. Photons are a form of electromagnetic radiation. Radar is also based on electromagnetic rays, and these rays, although of a much longer wavelength than light, are also subject to the same bending and distortion as photons. What the radar operator sees is not some detailed picture of the UFO with strange aliens peering through portholes. What he sees is a small blip on a green on gray radar display. In fact, the ground based radar is subject to more distortions of the radar signal due to the denser atmosphere near the ground and problems with ‘ground clutter’ - reflections from all the natural and manmade structures near ground level. This is why aircraft can avoid detection by flying ‘under the radar’. Probably the distortion of such radio signals that the average person is most familiar with is when their GPS display tells them that they are driving off in a field somewhere or through the center of a building.

Of course, none of this proves that no UFO sightings are due to exotic high performance aircraft, aliens, or, as propose by our resident crackpot, supernatural demons. It does indicate the level of skepticism and analysis that needs to be applied to UFO sightings, even if the sightings are by knowledgeable individuals and confirmed by radar. It also leaves open the question as to why the military found it necessary to classify the sightings. From my own experience working in the aerospace industry and holding several classification clearances, I’m guessing it’s because the military has a strong tendency to classify everything. It’s much easier to classify something and later declassify it than the other way around. And nobody ever got their ass in a wringer for overclassifying something.


Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Faith, posted 10-18-2019 8:51 PM AnswersInGenitals has responded
 Message 121 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-20-2019 12:12 AM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33699
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 120 of 139 (864947)
10-18-2019 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by AnswersInGenitals
10-18-2019 5:06 PM


Re: Optical illusions and optical delusions
One of the most boring jobs in the world is being an airline pilot. Planes fly themselves. Even when not on autopilot an airplane will maintain a steady heading and altitude. Yes, pilots do have to get involved during takeoffs and landings and rough air will create some excitement, but 99% of the time the pilot just sits there and stares out the window. During night flights and flying over the ocean, this can get very hypnotic. (Perhaps airlines should require their pilots on long flights to do a barrel roll or loop every 15 minutes to break up the monotony.) These conditions are ripe for visual misjudgments and optical illusions.

Are you talking about something that has been discussed on this thread somewhere? What I remember is Hyro's post Message 27 where the video was about UFOs sighted by pilots of fighter planes launched from an aircraft carrier, not self-piloting passenger planes. So the suggestion that they were hypnotized due to inactivity is far from the truth in this case. Other sightings were from the aircraft carrier The Nimitz.

As a previous poster noted, when while piloting an airplane at night and seeing a small circular light, he couldn’t tell if it was large and far away or small and close. But he still concludes it was the size of a car and 150 feet away.

You have this all wrong. That was hyro in Message 27describing his own personal experience on the deck of a ship at sea, not an airplane, and he was very tentative about his estimate of the size and distance of the object he saw precisely because the conditions made it so difficult to judge. He gave a tentative guess, not a conclusion.

Added to this visual inaccuracy, there are real visual effects that have been highly distorted by physical phenomenon, what I’ll call optical delusions. A well documented example of these is the fata morgana. And we’ve all seen what look like water on a road, but was just the sun glancing off the asphalt at a low angle

Yes we are aware of all these possible ways we can be deceived in our perceptions.

But what about those radar detections that confirm the visual sightings and see the same thing? It’s important to remember that you never actually see any thing, never see any stuff, and never see any process. What your eye detects are photons reflected or emitted by that thing, stuff, or process. And those photons reach your eye after traveling through some medium that can bend, reflect, or otherwise distort those photons creating what I have called optical delusions. Photons are a form of electromagnetic radiation. Radar is also based on electromagnetic rays, and these rays, although of a much longer wavelength than light, are also subject to the same bending and distortion as photons. What the radar operator sees is not some detailed picture of the UFO with strange aliens peering through portholes. What he sees is a small blip on a green on gray radar display. In fact, the ground based radar is subject to more distortions of the radar signal due to the denser atmosphere near the ground and problems with ‘ground clutter’ - reflections from all the natural and manmade structures near ground level. This is why aircraft can avoid detection by flying ‘under the radar’. Probably the distortion of such radio signals that the average person is most familiar with is when their GPS display tells them that they are driving off in a field somewhere or through the center of a building.

The radar detection of these UFOs in the video was from moving planes and an aircraft carrier, read by men very experienced in reading radar. I don't think your doubts would have been overlooked by them or not taken into account. And again the radar was not on the ground so your comments on that perspective are irrelevant.

Of course, none of this proves that no UFO sightings are due to exotic high performance aircraft, aliens, or, as propose by our resident crackpot, supernatural demons. It does indicate the level of skepticism and analysis that needs to be applied to UFO sightings, even if the sightings are by knowledgeable individuals and confirmed by radar. It also leaves open the question as to why the military found it necessary to classify the sightings. From my own experience working in the aerospace industry and holding several classification clearances, I’m guessing it’s because the military has a strong tendency to classify everything. It’s much easier to classify something and later declassify it than the other way around. And nobody ever got their ass in a wringer for overclassifying something.

The men in the video who experienceds these UFO phenomena, on the aircraft carrier and in the air, were all solid skeptics who hesitated to come to a conclusion about what they were seeing. In the end they only knew that they had witnessed something that appeared to be extremely real, some kind of unknown flying objects, physical but not behaving according to the laws of physics. They were intelligent skeptics.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 10-18-2019 5:06 PM AnswersInGenitals has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 11-02-2019 7:38 PM Faith has responded

  
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