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Author Topic:   Believe in UFOs? This editorial's for you!
Hyroglyphx
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Posts: 5858
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 121 of 139 (865013)
10-20-2019 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by AnswersInGenitals
10-18-2019 5:06 PM


Re: Optical illusions and optical delusions
he human mind has evolved a very strong ‘fill in the blanks’ tendency, very helpful when you hear a rustling in the bushes and can’t tell if its the wind or a lion.

No disagreement there.

As a previous poster noted, when while piloting an airplane at night and seeing a small circular light, he couldn’t tell if it was large and far away or small and close. But he still concludes it was the size of a car and 150 feet away.

The poster you're referencing was me. It was actually from the deck of a ship though. And in the spirit of that fill-in-the-blanks my first thought was that it was the mast light from a ship. The mind attempts to rationalize what it sees by scouring the mental database of things it knows. But mast lights don't move like that. As to the size, my backdrop was pitch black, so much so that I could barely see the white caps of the waves to distinguish between the water line and the sky. Needless to say attempting to gauge size was extremely difficult. If I absolutely had to guess I would estimate that was a relatively small object at midrange... but I can't certify it and my estimation could have been totally wrong.

All I can say for sure is that I've never witnessed anything like that brief, one minute encounter before or since. I can't and therefore won't say what it was -- just that it was so out of the ordinary that it was memorable.

And I won't blame you an iota for your skepticism... because I would share the exact same reservations for the exact same reasons.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 10-18-2019 5:06 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6799
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 122 of 139 (865148)
10-21-2019 11:22 AM


Maybe there is nothing out there after all
The thing I find most interesting is that most reports of aliens present something humanoidish or recognizable as some sort of creature we have some familiarity.
If there was any other life out there, I would think it would be so alien as to be unimaginable. If it were intelligent life it would be unimaginably different than what we can conceive intelligent life would be like.

https://theconversation.com/...t-life-in-the-universe-124706

quote:
That’s the anthropic principle: Earth’s history must have allowed intelligent life to evolve, or we wouldn’t be here to ponder it.
Intelligence seems to depend on a chain of improbable events. But given the vast number of planets, then like an infinite number of monkeys pounding on an infinite number of typewriters to write Hamlet, it’s bound to evolve somewhere. The improbable result was us.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 10-21-2019 4:20 PM Theodoric has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33651
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 123 of 139 (865168)
10-21-2019 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Theodoric
10-21-2019 11:22 AM


Re: Maybe there is nothing out there after all
I guess it's possible that every single sighting or supposed encounter with a UFO was a misidentification or hallucination. But that seems harder to accept than that some of them were real and not explainable in any normal ways. Hyro's video in Message 27 would have to be a mass hallucination without any psychological or situational reason for it, the witnesses sound extremely sane and credible, and the reports of something that defies any kind of normal explanation.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Theodoric, posted 10-21-2019 11:22 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6799
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 124 of 139 (865184)
10-21-2019 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
10-21-2019 4:20 PM


Re: Maybe there is nothing out there after all
No one doubts there are UFO's, What is doubted is that it is some sort of interstellar visitor. I do no think there is any reason to even consider the possibility they are interstellar visitors. Or ghosts. Or demons.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 10-21-2019 4:20 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 10-21-2019 5:16 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4731
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 125 of 139 (865189)
10-21-2019 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
10-21-2019 4:20 PM


Re: Maybe there is nothing out there after all
But that seems harder to accept than that some of them were real and not explainable in any normal ways.

Again, no one is saying that all such incidences are misidentification, hallucination or fake. All we can say is that *some* of these reports are real and not explainable.

Understand what that means. No one, except the screw loose, are saying these *unidentified* *unexplained* sightings are alien or demon apparitions. They are unidentified and unexplained.

They are not identified and explained as aliens. They are not identified and explained as ghosts. They are unidentified and unexplained. That is all that can be said.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 10-21-2019 4:20 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 10-22-2019 1:38 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31611
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(3)
Message 126 of 139 (865190)
10-21-2019 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Theodoric
10-21-2019 5:01 PM


Re: Maybe there is nothing out there after all
With "interstellar visitors" still being FAR more likely than ghosts or demons.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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 Message 124 by Theodoric, posted 10-21-2019 5:01 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33651
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 127 of 139 (865223)
10-22-2019 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by AZPaul3
10-21-2019 5:16 PM


Re: Maybe there is nothing out there after all
Did you watch the video in Message 27?

Focusing on demons is kind of a distraction, since that is my own interpretation of what Jacques Vallee identified as beings as described in folklore. He studied the reports of UFO phenomena and showed that they followed that ancient pattern. Beings that come and go at will, move in ways that violate the laws of physics and so on. Why keep making an issue of my own interpretation of that when this guy addressed all these phenomena and found this particular characteristic in all of them. That seems like an important piece of information to me.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by AZPaul3, posted 10-21-2019 5:16 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by AZPaul3, posted 10-22-2019 2:32 AM Faith has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4731
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 128 of 139 (865227)
10-22-2019 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Faith
10-22-2019 1:38 AM


Re: Maybe there is nothing out there after all
Did you watch the video ...

Yes, of course I watched the video. Very well done. Like any good propagandist he nailed the juxtapositions of image, voiceover and music just right to make his emotional points again and again and ... All the suspense, drama, emotion of a professional hollywood production.

The science sucked.

This was a UFOlogist's propaganda piece for fame and fortune. The obvious emotion grab, which you, My Dear, fell for is the first telltale.

As far as evidence for, let alone proof of, otherworldly notions it means nothing.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 10-22-2019 1:38 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-22-2019 10:16 AM AZPaul3 has not yet responded
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 10-22-2019 10:53 AM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 129 of 139 (865232)
10-22-2019 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by AZPaul3
10-22-2019 2:32 AM


Re: Maybe there is nothing out there after all
I'm beginning to think that your skepticism is one of your stronger traits. We need good skeptics to balance us out.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by AZPaul3, posted 10-22-2019 2:32 AM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33651
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 130 of 139 (865233)
10-22-2019 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by AZPaul3
10-22-2019 2:32 AM


Re: Maybe there is nothing out there after all
The video is rather dramatized, but I still think the men who saw the objects are good witnesses. But how would it look if scientifically studied instead I wonder. Collect all the radar data, interview the men separately in a neutral setting etc. Oh well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by AZPaul3, posted 10-22-2019 2:32 AM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 522
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 131 of 139 (865937)
11-02-2019 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Faith
10-18-2019 8:51 PM


Re: Optical illusions and optical delusions
That was hyro in Message 27describing his own personal experience on the deck of a ship at sea

Thank you for the correction. These sightings were over the water and so radar signals would not be bothered by ground clutter. But there is also sea surface clutter. Have you ever stood on a beach at night when the moon was above the far horizon and seen a path of silvery moon reflection shimmering on the water? Also, stars actually do not twinkle. The twinkling is due to multiple refractions of the star light as it passes through the upper atmosphere.

…some kind of unknown flying objects, physical but not behaving according to the laws of physics

One of the things that UFO skeptics (i. e., not skeptical that some phenomenon has been seen, but skeptical that the phenomenon is caused by technologically advanced foreign forces, aliens, or even demonic spirits) find most amusing is the way that the motions of the UFOs are interpreted. In almost all these sightings, the UFOs are described as moving in seemingly random, erratic ways involving speeds and accelerations beyond any known current technology. The UFO aficionados never stop to ask “Why?”. One thing that is clear is that if the UFOs are powered by intelligent beings, they are not very interested in making contact with us. The never stop to greet us with a “Howdee do” or give a speech to the UN or have an interview on The View. If their quest is to surveil the Earth and/or us Earthlings, and it is hard to think of any other purpose they might have, then it is hard to justify all those frantic motions. If you were a police detective charged with surveilling some place of business that might be involved in suspicious activity, I’m guessing you would conduct that surveillance from the shadows or other clandestine position. You wouldn’t do it in plain sight jumping around like an idiot and wearing a hat with bright flashing lights on it. (Or maybe you would if your the type of person that sees demonic possession in every unexplained occurrence.)

“…exhibiting motions well beyond any known technology…” I’ll let you in on a super, classified, codeword, SCIF level secret and show you how you can create an object that exhibits motion ‘beyond any known technology’, but it will require a major investment: $1.00 for a laser pointer and $1.00 for a small handheld mirror. On some dark and stormy night (the storm is actually optional) shine the laser light from the pointer onto the mirror and reflected onto a distant wall. Rapidly flick the mirror back and forth and the laser spot on the wall will move at thousands of miles per hour and accelerate at hundreds of g’s. To get to something closer to what is probably causing many of those UFO sightings, shine the laser light through a triangular prism so it is refracted onto the wall. But now we’re go even further and defy the laws of physics. This will require a further investment into two medium size telescopes. Use one telescope to project the laser light onto one edge of the moon. Then flick the mirror about 1/4th degree in about 10 milliseconds so the laser spot flicks to the opposite edge of the moon. Use the second telescope to observe the spot. That spot will have travelled 2,000 miles in 1/100 of a second, i. e., it will have travelled at 200,000 miles per second. The speed of light is ~186,000 miles per second, so you have created something that travels faster than the speed of light! (An extra credit question for the adroit student: Why does this not actually violate relativity and the known laws of physics? Hint: We’ve been a bit cavalier with the definition of ‘object’.)

But what about those sightings of UFOs that seem to move purposely and intelligently? Enter the Foo Fighters(not the band). These were objects seen by WWII pilots flying over German territory at night that appeared suddenly, looked like glowing (usually red) oblong spheres that followed the planes very precisely for a while as though intelligently guided and just as suddenly disappeared. Certainly, the only possible explanation for these sightings is that these were true advanced technology, maybe alien, vehicles. Have you ever driven on a road through a forested area and noticed that the trees next to the road zip by while the trees further into the forest seem to move precisely along with your car? Children on such trips often ask “Why are those trees following us?”. There are 2 possible explanations for this phenomenon:

Explanation 1: The distant trees have been demonically possessed and the demons have ripped the trees out of the ground and are making them run along the forrest floor;
Explanation 2: This is an optical illusion simply due to the geometric sensation called parallax.

These sightings occurred at night and during war when almost all the lights on the ground would have been black out, conditions where it is very hard to judge distances and any light sources that did exist, such as fires, search lights, or even lights on other aircraft could well appear to be following the planes.

Faith writes:

The men in the video who experienceds these UFO phenomena, on the aircraft carrier and in the air, were all solid skeptics who hesitated to come to a conclusion about what they were seeing. In the end they only knew that they had witnessed something that appeared to be extremely real, some kind of unknown flying objects, physical but not behaving according to the laws of physics. They were intelligent skeptics.

Yes! Exactly! Thank you, Faith! People experienced in optical and radar limitations and artifacts never insist that these phenomenon are beyond physical explanation. This is why they are now referring to them as UAO - unidentified aerial objects - to get away from all the nonsensical and sensationalistic explanations. They particularly do not refer to them as UDOs - unidentified demonic objects. Do you believe that crop circles are demonic (or even just physically unexplainable) creations? Please check the videos of how they are created by two guys with a two foot plank and a piece of rope and note how that phenomenon has faded from public attention now that the hoax has been explained.

Note: Due to the highly sensitive nature of some of the matters discussed above you are ordered herewith to burn this post after reading.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Faith, posted 10-18-2019 8:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 33651
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 132 of 139 (865972)
11-03-2019 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by AnswersInGenitals
11-02-2019 7:38 PM


Re: Optical illusions and optical delusions
Yes I know, there is only one person I know of who interprets these as nonphysical phenomena and that is Jacques Vallee who rightly concluded that they simply do not obey physical laws, but seem to behave the way countless phenomena reported down the ages do who are identified as "beings." He didn't call them demons, I did, he calls them beings. I say they are demons because those are identified in the Bible as one kind of angel, the fallen kind. So I'm the one saying they are demons, but vallee is a bone fide UFOolgist and he called them "beings."

All you science aficionados really need to learn that the easiest thing to do is rationalize something away.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 11-02-2019 7:38 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 11-03-2019 2:16 PM Faith has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 133 of 139 (865973)
11-03-2019 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Faith
11-03-2019 2:14 PM


Re: Optical illusions and optical delusions
Faith writes:

All you science aficionados really need to learn that the easiest thing to do is rationalize something away.


The easiest thing to do is make up a "supernatural" explanation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 11-03-2019 2:14 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Faith, posted 11-03-2019 2:21 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33651
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 134 of 139 (865974)
11-03-2019 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by ringo
11-03-2019 2:16 PM


Re: Optical illusions and optical delusions
Vallee studied the UFO phenomena for years. You need to learn some respect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 11-03-2019 2:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 11-03-2019 2:24 PM Faith has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 135 of 139 (865975)
11-03-2019 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Faith
11-03-2019 2:21 PM


Re: Optical illusions and optical delusions
Faith writes:

Vallee studied the UFO phenomena for years.


You don't need to study anything at all to come up with a "supernatural" explanation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Faith, posted 11-03-2019 2:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 11-03-2019 2:30 PM ringo has responded

  
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