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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 17 of 277 (831862)
04-25-2018 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
04-24-2018 6:19 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
I think it's amazing that the officer didn't shoot this guy during the arrest. I've heard that the dude was yelling about having a gun and apparently pulled out his phone/fingers from his pocket acting like they were guns! And the cop still kept his cool.

My guess is the cop knew/highly-suspected that he didn't have a gun before any of the dude's threats began. And then the officer didn't fall for the bluff.
Don't want to play poker against that cop...

However, although this situation was an amazing feat of control for the police officer, Canada/Ontario/Toronto still certainly has it's issues with police gun control:
Sammy Yatim

I do agree, though, that it's certainly "lesser" in Canada.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 04-24-2018 6:19 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 04-25-2018 8:04 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 19 of 277 (831877)
04-26-2018 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rrhain
04-25-2018 8:04 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
Rrhain writes:

And what part of "the guy was white" played into your analysis?

Enough to know it could be a significant factor, and also that it might not.

Let's not pretend that Canada has defeated racism.

I agree we shouldn't do that.
It's quite easy to praise a cop in doing a good job (an amazing feat of restraint!) without pretending that Canada has defeated racism.
I think you have an issue with taking things to extremes in order to push a provocative agenda.

In November of last year, the city of Toronto was the subject of an investigation into racial profiling by police.

Good.
I hope they continue such endeavors. Canada most certainly has not defeated racism.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 04-25-2018 8:04 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Rrhain, posted 04-26-2018 8:02 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 23 of 277 (831906)
04-27-2018 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Rrhain
04-26-2018 8:02 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
Rrhain writes:

Don't you find it interesting that a suspect that is actively threatening the cops, making it seem like he has a weapon, doesn't get shot at while another suspect who is actively submissive and showing that he does not have a weapon gets shot under the claim of, "I thought he had a gun"? That a cop demands a suspect to show ID and when said suspect reaches for his wallet to get it, the cops shoot him claiming, "I thought he had a gun"?

How many times do I have to agree with you before you move on with your argument?

I agree with you that, in general, there is a horrible problem where sometimes cops treat black people worse than white people in Canada.
My comment was that this trend is "lesser" in Canada than it is in the US.
That is, not that this doesn't happen in Canada, but that it happens less than it does in the US.

Your argument doesn't do anything to suggest otherwise.

I think it's possible that this cop is racist and part of the general problem and didn't shoot because the guy was white and would have killed him if he was black.
I think it's possible that this cop is not racist not part of the general problem and didn't shoot because he showed amazing restraint and also wouldn't have shot if the criminal was black.

Your argument doesn't do anything to suggest otherwise.

All you keep doing is waving a bunch of hands in the air about a general topic that I agree with you about in the general sense anyway.

Do you have anything more to add?

Note, this is not a condemnation of the officer for managing to handle the situation without shooting someone. It does mean that since we know it can be done, we need to start wondering why such things can't be done more often. We need to start holding all of our police interactions up to this standard.

I absolutely agree with you, again.

Now. Do you have another step with your argument or are you done flailing about wildly on things I already agree with that have no impact on anything I've previously said?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Rrhain, posted 04-26-2018 8:02 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Rrhain, posted 04-27-2018 6:58 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 34 of 277 (832241)
05-01-2018 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Rrhain
04-27-2018 6:58 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
Except it isn't. In the US, 31% of people killed by the police are black. Of those killed by police who were not attacking, 39% were.

It's the same in Canada. Of the 52 people killed by the Toronto cops between 2000 and 2017, 19 were black. That's 36.5% despite Toronto's black population being only 8.3%.

You're right. Maybe I was wrong in claiming that the trend is lesser in Canada then in the US.
I don't have a problem with being wrong. It happens a lot. I learn things.

Or maybe you're wrong.
Why compare "the US" to "Toronto?" Why not compare country-to-country or city-to-city (Chicago and Detroit and NY are large US cities close to Toronto?)
Where did you get this information from?
This wiki site lists police killings across Canada.
It only shows 20-ish killed in Toronto by cops between 2000 and 2017.
It doesn't say race for every individual.
The Toronto Star claims that "No race-based statistics on fatal police encounters are kept by province’s police watchdog — or Statistics Canada, Toronto police or the Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services."
And that only makes me more interested in where you collected your information...

But, really, it doesn't matter.

Maybe I'm wrong - if so, I apologize.
Or maybe you're wrong.

Either way, that's not my point.
My point was about identifying that a policeman in Canada showed amazing restraint in not shooting a man who seemingly wanted "death by police."

I still agree with you that racism exists in police forces and that it's a problem that should continue to be addressed.

Rrhain writes:

OK...so you agree. Then are you going to respond to this?

Yes.

And I still think your nitpicking on points that are only tangentially connected to the reason I made my post only go to show that you are pushing your own agenda.

You still haven't said anything that would contradict this policeman doing a great job. You only seem able to insinuate contradictions by claiming that, in a very general sense, racist police do in fact exist.

I still agree with you that racism exists in police forces and that it's a problem that should continue to be addressed.

Again, do you have any reason to reply to my point or are you going to provide more general statistics showing that racism exists in police forces and it should be monitored and controlled?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Rrhain, posted 04-27-2018 6:58 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Rrhain, posted 05-01-2018 9:13 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 41 of 277 (832319)
05-02-2018 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rrhain
05-01-2018 9:13 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
Rrhain writes:

Right, the Quebec Human Rights Commission isn't investigating the Toronto police regarding racial bias. Or if they are, it's on the flimsiest of evidence.

Do you have a link to your data?

(*blink*) You did not just say that, did you? Blacks are being killed in Toronto at a rate more than three times their population and you're complaining that I'm comparing the city to the average of the US?

Uh, yeah.
I like to understand things.

Do large cities generally have higher rates than entire-country-averages?
If so... then you are the one cherry picking.
If not... then it doesn't make a difference.

But simply expressing your anger that I'm attempting to learn something doesn't help move the discussion forward.

So, again:

Why compare "the US" to "Toronto?" Why not compare country-to-country or city-to-city (Chicago and Detroit and NY are large US cities close to Toronto?)

Why do I get the feeling that no matter what city I chose, it wouldn't be acceptable to you and you'd accuse me of cherry picking? No, averaging across the US where we know there is pervasive, systemic racism is sufficient.

I don't know why. I would guess that you're paranoid?
I offered two cities that are also large and close to Toronto (Chicago and Detroit). Pick either of those and I'll be fine in a comparison to Toronto.

But even that doesn't apply to a Canada-vs-US comparison as it would be a Toronto-vs-Chicago or Toronto-vs-Detroit comparison.

My claim was that the statistic was lesser in Canada than it was in the US.

Maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe you're wrong.

But so far, you have not shown anything that shows that claim to be incorrect. You simply imply that it's incorrect. I like to learn things, and that means getting to the actual answer. Don't worry about upsetting me, if you have the information for a country-to-country comparison just let me know.
If you don't... then I suppose my claim goes uncontested. I also admit that it goes unsupported (as I have no statistics to provide either). But that doesn't mean you can simply imply something and think it's good enough.

And surely you aren't suggesting that racial problems, if they exist in Canada, are only in Toronto, are you?

No.
Again, Rrhain, I agree with you that police forces have issues with racism and killing black people. Such a problem should continue to be monitored and controlled.

Canada contains police forces.
Many parts of Canada contain many different police forces.
Each one, I would guess, would have it's issues with racism and killing black people. Some will be better than others.

Are you incapable of retaining information?
I suppose I can simply keep repeating myself, if you really prefer.

Rrhain writes:

Stile writes:

Where did you get this information from?

I provided sources.

Just right now when I asked for them?
You seem to claim that they come from the Quebec Human Rights Commission. Can you provide a link to something I can see?
I searched the thread for "Quebec" and this post right now from you is the first one it pops up in.
Maybe I missed it or maybe you presented a source in a reply to someone else? Could you link to it, please?

Stile's linked Wiki article writes:

This list is incomplete.

And maybe your numbers are an over-estimation.

Rrhain writes:

But I guess the CBC is incompetent, right? Only Wikipedia is allowed to have a say?

That's why I like to compare sources.
Can you provide a link to yours so I can take a look?

And that's why you keep failing. It does matter.

Failing at what?
Failing at agreeing with you? I think sometimes you're fighting just to fight.

Again, Rrhain, I agree with you that police forces have issues with racism and killing black people. Such a problem should continue to be monitored and controlled.

Rrhain writes:

Stile writes:

My point was about identifying that a policeman in Canada showed amazing restraint in not shooting a man who seemingly wanted "death by police."

And my point is that said restraint seems to be oh, so much easier to find when the guy's white.

And I agree with you.

Again, Rrhain, I agree with you that police forces have issues with racism and killing black people. Such a problem should continue to be monitored and controlled.

Rrhain writes:

Yeah, good on the cop for not shooting the guy.

Extremely good on him. It was a very impressive show of amazing restraint and control!

What's that have to do with pervasive, systemic racism?

I wasn't making a point about pervasive, systemic racism.
I was simply point out that a policeman in Canada showed amazing restraint in not shooting a man who seemingly wanted "death by police."

You seem to be jumping all over my point in order to push your agenda of fighting over pervasive, systemic racism.

But the problem is, I already agree with you.

Again, Rrhain, I agree with you that police forces have issues with racism and killing black people. Such a problem should continue to be monitored and controlled.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Rrhain, posted 05-01-2018 9:13 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Rrhain, posted 05-04-2018 5:09 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 46 of 277 (832742)
05-09-2018 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Rrhain
05-04-2018 5:09 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
Rrhain writes:

Stile writes:

Do you have a link to your data?

Yep. In the post which you seem to not have read. Go back, do your homework, and then try again.

I still can't find it.

You provided a bunch of links here... but they only support what I've been saying:
That Toronto (or even Canada) police has an issue with racial profiling and that specific data is unavailable.

Here's your claim:

Rrhain writes:

Of the 52 people killed by the Toronto cops between 2000 and 2017, 19 were black.

None of the links you provided contain this claim, and most of them agree that such data is currently unavailable.
I searched them for the number "52" and it only shows up in unrelated numbers... like indexes and such.

So, again, do you have a link to your data?

Because to choose an individual city would be cherry-picking. Because the US as a whole has a problem. So if Toronto is comparable to the US and the US has a problem, then Toronto has a problem.

But I agree with you that Toronto has a problem.

My claim was that Canada has a lesser problem than the US.

You cannot show that this claim is false by saying Toronto is comparable to the US.
Toronto is a very large city within Canada. To use Toronto as an average for "Canada" for pretty much anything is going to be wrong. It will likely be high.

Therefore, if Toronto is comparable to the US, and Toronto is likely high for Canada...
This leads to it being likely that my claim of the problem being "lesser" in Canada than the US is correct.

You seem to be implying that my claim is wrong, while providing evidence for it's support.

If you agree that "police forces have issues with racism and killing black people," then what part of "the guy was white" played into your analysis regarding your being impressed in this case?

When you say, "It was a very impressive show of amazing restraint and control," what part of "the guy was white" played into your analysis? Did it even occur to you?

I've already answered this.
You don't seem to have any relevant reply.

My answer was:

quote:
Enough to know it could be a significant factor, and also that it might not.

Which leaves us, again, with the correct assessment that this was policeman displayed some very impressive restraint and control!

Unless you can provide us with more than just generalized statistics that I already agree with?
Can you provide something specifically related to this officer that would indicate that he is part of the problem and not part of the solution?

If you do produce something, please also provide your source.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Rrhain, posted 05-04-2018 5:09 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Rrhain, posted 05-10-2018 8:51 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 53 of 277 (832811)
05-11-2018 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Rrhain
05-10-2018 8:51 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
Ah, thank-you for finally providing your source.

Rrhain writes:

You know...like I told you before. "In the post which you seem to not have read. Go back, do your homework, and then try again."

It's not my homework to read your posts to other people for a source to a claim you made to me.
That's your homework to provide your sources when asked. As you finally did, thank-you.

Rrhain writes:

Stile writes:

My claim was that Canada has a lesser problem than the US.

As if that means it is of little to no concern.

"Lesser" does not mean, or imply "little" or "none."

For example: Let's say we have 2 women. Heather is 6'1" tall. Jude is 6'2" tall.
Heather's height is lesser than that of Jude.
However, both women would still be considered "very tall" in comparison to the general population of women.

Heather's height is lesser than Jude's. Both Heather and Jude are very tall.
Canada's racial problem is lesser than the US's. Both Canada and the US have serious racial issues they should continue to monitor and control.

Rrhain writes:

Just because people don't bleed doesn't mean the problem is less.

You're absolutely right.

And just because Toronto's problem is on par with the US doesn't mean Canada's problem isn't lesser than the US's. In fact, it indicates that Canada does have a lesser problem than the US.

So, again, thanks for proving my claim.

Rrhain writes:

And which leaves us, again, with my response to you:

And what part of "the guy was white" played into your analysis?

From your protestations, it would appear the answer is: None at all.

But... I've answered this twice now.
The second time was in the post you just replied to.

You really don't have anything more than attempts at confusion, do you?
No relevant facts, no pertinent details.

Nothing more than general statistics that I already agree with.

For the third time, here's my answer to your question:

quote:
Enough to know it could be a significant factor, and also that it might not.

Since you seem incapable of providing any information that would indicate this policeman is part of the problem and not part of the solution:

This, again, leaves us with the correct assessment that this policeman displayed some very impressive restraint and control!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Rrhain, posted 05-10-2018 8:51 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Rrhain, posted 05-11-2018 3:18 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 61 of 277 (834379)
06-04-2018 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Rrhain
05-11-2018 3:18 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
Rrhain writes:

Stile writes:

Canada's racial problem is lesser than the US's.

No, not really. After all, the very city in which this happened is under investigation for racial bias and the rate at which black people are shot by the cops is on par with the US.

If Toronto is on par with the US (as your stats show).
And Toronto is a high statistic for Canada (obvious as stats-for-major-cities are always high statistics compared to stats-spread-across-large-countries).

Then Canada's racial problem is lesser than the US's.

But getting shot is not the end-all/be-all of police interactions. There's the rest of the justice system, too, with black people being poorly treated at every step of the way compared to their white counterparts.

It is possible to be "lesser" in comparison and not have "none" in an absolute sense.

My claim is that Canada has a pretty bad problem dealing with race in general. Canada should continue to monitor it and attempt to reduce/control it as much as possible.

But this problem in Canada is still lesser than that in the US. You seem to agree with this by saying Toronto is on par with the US. But then you seem to disagree with the statement without providing anything else to back up your claim.

You really don't have anything except some sort of defensiveness regarding someone thinking about how race was involved, do you?

The idea that Canada has a lesser problem than the US is based on your stats that Toronto is on par with the US.

Is it really so hard for this interaction to have occurred?

Me: "What part of 'the guy was white' played into your analysis?"

You: "None, but now that you mention it, it certainly didn't hurt."

And that would have been the end of it.

Not difficult at all.
It simply isn't the truth.

What's so difficult about the truth?

Rrhain writes:

You: "This policeman displayed some very impressive restraint and control!"

Me: "What part of 'the guy was white' played into your analysis?"

You: ...?

I will answer this for, what, the 42nd time now?

quote:
Enough to know it could be a significant factor, and also that it might not.

And, thanks to the stats you've provided, and your failure to provide any details on this specific situation indicating otherwise:

It seems more likely that 'the guy was white' did not play a significant role in this policeman's display of impressive restraint and control.

I can't say it's very likely - I can't read the mind of the policeman.
But I can look at the information you've brought up, and it's all either in favour of my statements or irrelevant to the specific ideas going through the mind of this particular policeman in this specific instance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Rrhain, posted 05-11-2018 3:18 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 165 of 277 (844471)
11-30-2018 2:30 PM


What's next?
In Canada, we ran out of excuses to shoot the public.
So the police started shooting each other.
    
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