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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 8 of 277 (830585)
04-03-2018 1:16 PM


To lighten the mood a bit:

I was walking home from the bus stop one night at about 12:30 AM. A few blocks from my house I saw two police cars. I live two blocks from the "worst neighbourhood in Canada", affectionately known as "the Hood", but it's very unusual to see a police car on my side of the tracks. Then, a few minutes later another police car stopped beside me. The cop asked me where I was going; I told him. He said that there were reports of somebody running around with an axe and he asked if I had seen anything; I hadn't. He asked if I had a cellphone; I did. He told me to feel free to call if I saw anything; I didn't.


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 29 of 277 (831987)
04-28-2018 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by ProtoTypical
04-28-2018 7:13 AM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
ProtoTypical writes:

Apparently you think that every black man who gets shot by the police is an example of racism and every white person who doesn't is an example of privilege.


Not "every" one - just a disproportionate number.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

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 Message 27 by ProtoTypical, posted 04-28-2018 7:13 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 66 of 277 (835316)
06-21-2018 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2018 2:22 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:

... you are held to an almost impossible standard - a standard that most people simply don't understand.


That seems contradictory. How can people hold police to a standard that they, the people, don't understand?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2018 2:22 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2018 5:35 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 68 of 277 (835319)
06-21-2018 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by caffeine
06-21-2018 12:59 PM


Re: Police Murder 17-Year-Old
This, I think, is a legal and cultural matter.

In most of the western world:

Q: Why did you shoot that man?
A: Because he had a gun.

In the US:

Q: Why did you shoot that man?
A: Because I had a gun.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

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 Message 67 by caffeine, posted 06-21-2018 12:59 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 74 of 277 (835339)
06-21-2018 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2018 5:35 PM


So it isn' t really a matter of the public not understanding the standard. They're just hypocritical about it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2018 5:35 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2018 6:00 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 79 of 277 (835663)
06-27-2018 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Hyroglyphx
06-27-2018 2:27 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:

It's already outrageously dangerous just by the nature of the job.


I get tired of hearing that. As far as I can tell, policing isn't even in the top ten most dangerous jobs in the US. For example, logging, fishing and farming are more dangerous.

The parnoid attitude that police officers tend to have contributes a lot to unnecessary shootings.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-27-2018 2:27 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-28-2018 12:54 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 84 of 277 (835701)
06-28-2018 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Hyroglyphx
06-28-2018 12:54 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:

Imagine showing up to every nasty little thing that happens in your city and what kind of effects that has on one's psychology.


Imagine cutting down a ten-ton tree that can kill you in an instant if you make the smallest miscalculation. imagine what kind of effects that has on one's psychology. On your day off can you even take a nap under the shady tree in your back yard without thinking about it?

Hyroglyphx writes:

I'm not saying being a police officer is more dangerous than being a deep-sea fisherman off the coast of Alaska...


But that is what police officers seem to think. Worse, they seem to think that carrying guns will solve their problems.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-28-2018 12:54 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-29-2018 12:55 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 90 of 277 (835729)
06-29-2018 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Hyroglyphx
06-29-2018 12:55 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:

Crime, after all, is a sociological problem above all.


And the police have the same problems as the society they inhabit. When civilians have bad attitudes toward guns, so do the police.

Your society believes it can protect itself with guns. Your police believe they can protect themselves with guns. Your bad guys believe they can protect themselves with guns. But there often comes a point when "protecting yourself" becomes attacking somebody else. The police don't seem to be any better at making that distinction than the average citizen.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-29-2018 12:55 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-09-2018 2:16 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(3)
Message 94 of 277 (836069)
07-09-2018 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Hyroglyphx
07-09-2018 2:16 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:

You can substitute gun with fist, pepper spray, baton, or anything else designed for protection that can also be used to attack.


The difference is that fists, pepper spray, batons, etc. are seldom fatal. When the probable result of your action is irreversible, the decision ought to be taken a lot more seriously.

A hero is somebody who risks his own life, not somebody else's.

We have too many police shootings of innocent victims. If taking the decision to shoot more seriously results in more police officers being killed, that's a reality we should be prepared for.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-09-2018 2:16 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2018 6:21 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 105 of 277 (836299)
07-14-2018 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Hyroglyphx
07-13-2018 6:21 PM


Hyroglyphx writes:

You do understand that often their are innocent bystanders or family violence dynamics that demand a person to be rescued from someone capable and willing to do harm to them.


Bystanders can be harmed by police bullets as well as criminal bullets.

Hyroglyphx writes:

Or are you not understanding that the only justified reason to take a life is when another life is on the line?


That's the whole topic: the police don't seem to be very good at deciding when it's "necessary".

Htroglyphx writes:

So, cops are expendable but homicidal people are not?


Don't try to divert the topic. The problem here is that cops often see civilians as expendable.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2018 6:21 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-15-2018 9:15 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 115 of 277 (836395)
07-16-2018 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Hyroglyphx
07-15-2018 9:15 PM


Hyroglyphx writes:

So, what, that invalidates the necessity of protecting people?


Well, yes. Killing people is not a good way of protecting them.

Do you kill one person to protect two? Do you kill eighty-one people to protect eighty-two? How much time does a police officer have to do the math?

Hyroglyphx writes:

You know, there's a whole lot more people who want an armed police force that don't want an armed police force.


There's a lot of people who want to drink and smoke and gamble. Counting noses is not the best method of setting policy.

Hyroglyphx writes:

So then get rid of a police force altogether and see how well that works out for society.


Nobody is suggesting that. You're just weakening your argument by going off the deep end of absurdity.

Hyroglyphix writes:

Crime increase by 500% overnight.


I can play the unfounded speculation game too: Everybody gets a cookie.

Hyroglyphx writes:

If, as you are suggesting, the actual problem is police officers...


I'm not suggesting that "the" problem is police officers. I'm suggesting that police officers are part of the problem.

Hyroglyphx writes:

...then it stands to reason that a police force is unnecessary in your estimation.


Well, no, that doesn't stand to reason at all. By that logic, problems in education could be solved by eliminating schools.

In my estimation, a gun-happy police force is unnecessary. The British police are an example.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-15-2018 9:15 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-22-2018 11:15 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 121 of 277 (836860)
07-23-2018 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Hyroglyphx
07-22-2018 11:15 PM


Hyroglyphx writes:

As I said, sometimes it is necessary to take the life of a violent felon in order to save an innocent hostage. Are you really going to argue that point?


If I was going to argue that point, I would argue that point. My point is that we can't extrapolate that point.

Hyroglyphx writes:

That was your central point! You made the suggestion that the police are so quick to be heavy-handed in light of numerous instances that we ought to disarm them.


Hmm... that doesn't sound like any central point that I would make. Maybe you can quote where I said any such thing. The central point that I thought I was trying to make was that cops shouldn't get a free pass just because their jobs are "dangerous".

I don't know if I have ever advocated disarming cops. Maybe you can refresh my short memory on that. I did mention that many cops manage to do their jobs without shooting people.

Hyroglyphx writes:

If the real issue is shitty cops then whether they're armed or not seems like a secondary issue to the real problem, no?


Well, I seem to recall saying that shitty cops are more likely to make fatal mistakes with guns than without guns.

Hyroglyphx writes:

In any case, if a standing army was making incorrect force decisions in combat, would your solution be to disarm the military or would your solution be to increase training and increase punitive measures against those who violate the rules of engagement?


Point of information: I come from a Mennonite background. In case you're not aware, Mennonites are pacifists. I'm not a good Mennonite by any means, but I am in favour of disarming the military whether they make incorrect decisions or not. That is, however, a separate issue from the police.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-22-2018 11:15 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 178 of 277 (849046)
02-22-2019 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Percy
02-22-2019 9:32 AM


Re: Police Don't Need Guns
I recently read Dodge City: Wyatt Earp, Bat Masterson, and the Wickedest Town in the American West by Tom Clavin. As Marshall of Dodge City, Wyatt Earp sometimes borrowed a gun when he thought he might need one. When he did carry one, he most often used it to "buffalo" his opponents by whacking them over the head with it.

As for movies, in Angel and the Badman (1947), Harry Carey says, "Only a man that carries a gun ever needs one."


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 02-22-2019 9:32 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 200 of 277 (849282)
03-03-2019 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Percy
03-02-2019 6:10 PM


Percy writes:

Anyone who is going to fire 10 or 20 shots in response to a glint of light off a cellphone shouldn't be allowed within a mile of a gun.


Not to mention that anybody who only hits a human-sized target 8 out of twenty times shouldn't be allowed within a mile of a gun.

In another city near where I live, a few years ago there was a "shootout" in which two police officers and one suspect apparently fired one shot each. Only one of the bullets hit its target, the suspect, non-fatally. My first thought was, "What a waste of two bullets". My second thought was that the officer whose bullet did find the target needs a refresher course on the gun range.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Percy, posted 03-02-2019 6:10 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 203 of 277 (849386)
03-07-2019 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Percy
03-07-2019 11:47 AM


Re: Sometimes Your Win One
Corey Jones, a musician with $10,000 in drums in the back of his vehicle, pulled a licensed gun to defend himself from what he thought was a robbery.

Illustrating how useful guns are for "self-defense".

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Percy, posted 03-07-2019 11:47 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
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