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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Tangle
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Posts: 7793
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 15 of 531 (831850)
04-25-2018 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
04-24-2018 6:19 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
It's a cultural difference isn't it? Something to do with cowboy films and Dirty Harry.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 04-24-2018 6:19 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7793
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 289 of 531 (863356)
09-25-2019 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 1:26 AM


Hydro writes:

Given a knife is a deadly weapon

A knife becomes a deadly weapon when it's used that way. Like a car, battery acid, a golf club, a brick. An military assault rifle has only one purpose.

and given that UK knife violence continues to rise,

Knife crime has become a problem in youth gangs in some parts of our cities, mostly London and mostly drug driven. It's a very worrying issue. Even so, there were 'only' 263 knife murders in the UK between July 2017 and July 2018. I won't embarrass you with the US figure.

It's a seems that there is an insufficient way to handle it and that current legislation doesn't curb it.

Our police are armed when they need to be. Increasingly so given the terrorism threat. It's something that even right wing leaning people here are concerned about. But there is absolutely no demand from anywhere to arm the bobby on the beat - not even the police. We know it would lead to even more needless death. We need to solve the underlying problem, not go around shooting people.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 1:26 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 12:08 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7793
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 297 of 531 (863380)
09-25-2019 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 12:08 PM


Hydro writes:

I don't think you understand what my objection is.

I know what your objection is, you want to keep your guns. All this stuff about police being armed or not, and knife crime in the UK is just chaff.

Tasers are absolutely fantastic when they work. Problem is they work about 50% of the time, especially during colder months where people naturally wear bulkier clothing.

Most of our police do not even have tasers. Weird huh?

And fighting a person armed with a knife with only a baton looks cool in the movies, but in reality you're gonna get carved up before being able to actually disarm him.

It's a very rare event where unarmed police need to confront a person with a knife. In our society we somehow deal with the issue.

If the cops can't reliably defend themselves how can they be expected to defend anyone else?

The cops obviously do reliably defend themselves and the public and have done for centuries. But of course, they don't get routinely shot at here because the general public isn't armed to the teeth so they don't need to shoot back.

Short of your police being clairvoyant soothsayers how would anybody know when that time is?

You realise you're talking about a system that by-and-large works very well and we're all ok with? There ARE other methods than lethal force.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 12:08 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 1:15 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7793
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 299 of 531 (863389)
09-25-2019 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 1:15 PM


Hydro writes:

I'm just pointing out that even in the absence of guns, deadly force still exists.

Yeh, I think we know that.

A knife can kill you just as easily as a gun can.

Oh I'm pretty sure a gun does it a bit better don't you? Do you hunt with a knife? Should we arm the British Bobby with knives?

Yes, and I'm glad those options are available to handle a multitude of different scenarios.

They are available and they work.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 1:15 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 2:51 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7793
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 304 of 531 (863460)
09-26-2019 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 2:51 PM


Hyro writes:

The advantage of the gun over the knife is that allows for distance.

That's one advantage. But you know that there are many many more - not least the ability to kill a lot of people at a distance very quickly.

Which is why no armed force of any description uses knives instead of guns.

But in terms of lethality, the knife is every bit as dangerous.

Right, so you'd be the idiot bringing a knife to a gun fight?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 2:51 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7793
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 345 of 531 (867646)
11-30-2019 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 344 by Percy
11-29-2019 8:03 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

It reads like the British are not well trained for guns and bombs.

Armed police are trained within an inch of their lives for both guns and bombs. We have more experience than any country in the world in dealing with both. Particularly in London.

Because we only have armed police in specialist tactical units that's what they do all day. Those guys would know exactly what to do in those circumstances and thankfully did it. He was shot dead only when he opened his jacket to reveal the vest.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Percy, posted 11-29-2019 8:03 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by Percy, posted 12-01-2019 8:18 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7793
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 349 of 531 (867714)
12-02-2019 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by Percy
12-01-2019 8:18 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

That's one of the things I was critical of. Doesn't firing bullets into an explosive vest (that was fake, but they didn't know that at the time) risk causing the vest to explode?

I expect that they might understand that and have been trained on what to do in those situations don't you?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Percy, posted 12-01-2019 8:18 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Percy, posted 12-02-2019 1:54 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7793
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 378 of 531 (867926)
12-05-2019 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by Percy
12-04-2019 8:06 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

I of course don't buy the argument that every police use of their weapon must be a kill shot.

That is not the situation in the UK.

Firearms are only allowed at all in situations where an imminent lethal threat is realistically evident. When a tactical firearms team is called in their policy is to shoot to remove the threat. That usually means shooting into the chest area because that is the biggest target but that, of course, carries a risk of being fatal.

quote:
To prevent an immediate threat to life by shooting to stop the subject from carrying out their intended or threatened course of action. In most circumstances this is achieved by aiming to strike the central body mass (i.e. the torso).

With terrorists - rather than armed criminals - the policy is very different.

“ Operation Kratos is the collective name for a range of anti-terrorist tactics, specifically:

Operation Andromeda, "designed to deal with the spontaneous sighting by a member of the public of a suspected suicide bomber."

Operation Beach, "where there is an intelligence-led covert operation to locate and arrest persons suspected of involvement in acts of terrorism."

Operation Clydesdale, "where intelligence has been received about a suicide attack on a pre-planned event."[2]

These plans deal with identifying and confronting suicide attackers. Ideally, the confrontation would be arranged in a secluded location to avoid risk to police officers and members of the public. In extreme situations, the policy recommends that covert police officers fire on suspected suicide attackers without warning, aiming multiple shots at the brain stem to minimise the risk of detonation of a bomb.[2][5] The Metropolitan Police and other forces also issue Kratos officers with hollow point ammunition, but this has not been incorporated into national guidance.[6]

The decision whether to take such drastic action would be made by a Designated Senior Officer (DSO), an officer of Commander or Deputy Assistant Commissioner rank designated for that incident.[2]


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Percy, posted 12-04-2019 8:06 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by Percy, posted 12-06-2019 11:58 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7793
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 384 of 531 (867971)
12-05-2019 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by Percy
12-05-2019 11:55 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

This appears to argue that committing an attack makes you fair game for execution instead of just arrest. I'm afraid I could never agree to that.

Would it make a difference if we changed your wording to

This appears to argue that committing an attack makes you fair game for being shot dead instead of just arrested.

? Because of course it does.

Calling it an 'execution' - and I believe earlier you've called it 'murder' - burdens it with delayed, deliberate, unnecessary and inevitable sanction.

The police are following policy, making split second decisions based on that policy and training are are subject to the same criminal law against murder that I am. Force of any kind must be reasonable according to the circumstances. Anybody acting outside that law will be prosecuted.

The terrorist also knows what to expect if he goes around knifing people in the street and wearing a suicide vest - he WILL be shot dead. I do not support the death penalty but I do support shooting people dead that are attempting to kill others.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Percy, posted 12-05-2019 11:55 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by Percy, posted 12-06-2019 12:12 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7793
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 389 of 531 (868012)
12-06-2019 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by DrJones*
12-06-2019 9:57 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
... having just murdered two people with two knives, one taped to his hand so he couldn't be disarmed, fully intending to murder as many more as he possibly could.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by DrJones*, posted 12-06-2019 9:57 AM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7793
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 394 of 531 (868019)
12-06-2019 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by Percy
12-06-2019 12:12 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

The suspect was not attempting to kill anyone prior to the moment he was killed but was being held down by passersby. He was killed immediately after the last passersby was pulled off.

And then shot - presumably in the head - because he had a fake suicide vest on and had already proved his intentions. That's policy and training and I can't see what other policy could work in anything more than an armchair tactician's mind with all the time in the world to replay videos of the event from all angles.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Percy, posted 12-06-2019 12:12 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by Percy, posted 12-07-2019 9:50 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7793
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 404 of 531 (868099)
12-07-2019 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by Percy
12-07-2019 9:28 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

This one is, on the surface, a tough one.

It really isn't.

It's the obvious execution style of the killing that makes this incident worth taking on.

Again, you're equating the police's action in this incident with taking someone to a field and shooting them in the back of the head. The guy was deliberately shot dead because he was a terrorist that had already killed two people and was attempting to kill more. The police were following a thought-through policy and their training for dealing with a suicide bomber.

If they acted outside the law, we'll hear about it. But I'm betting anything we won't.

And, btw, I'm speaking as someone anti-gun and anti-capital punishment.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Percy, posted 12-07-2019 9:28 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by Percy, posted 12-09-2019 2:18 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7793
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 413 of 531 (868239)
12-09-2019 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by Percy
12-09-2019 11:24 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

Police arrest dangerous murderous people all the time. It's why many murderers are in prisons instead in cemeteries. Why not this one?

Because it's policy and training to use lethal force in a terrorist situation where it is known that the perpetrator is trying to do as much damage as possible with no regard to his own life.

That's the way the evidence falls - after studying many suicide bomber incidents in Israel and on home territory shooting them dead was found to cause the least loss of life.

I have no idea where the terrorist was shot but there will be an inquest and an internal review, and maybe we'll find out. But I doubt it because nobody here cares. You won't find many, if any, here trying to second-guess the police shooting that terrorist.

If he was shot in the chest, the learning point would be about why not the head, not why not the leg or arm or whatever.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Percy, posted 12-09-2019 11:24 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by Percy, posted 12-11-2019 2:19 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7793
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 418 of 531 (868265)
12-09-2019 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 417 by Percy
12-09-2019 2:18 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

Yeah, pretty much.

Thats's a real problem. The situations are not in anyway comparable, but it does speak to your starting point.

When the suspect was killed the police only knew that he had attacked people with knives. They didn't know if anyone had been killed, or that the suspect had served time in prison for terrorist related activities.

Let's be honest neither of us know what they knew. But, we do know that they are armed police, that they have been called to an emergency terrorist incident and it's not the first time.

And I'm questioning that policy. All policies, no matter how well thought through, evolve and change over time in reaction to how well they work in reality and to changing circumstances and improved insights.

Yup, but the policies in place at the time are the ones used. And so far I'm not hearing anything better.

I never got into the legality of the killing of the suspect. I'm simply saying that the currently available information leads me to think it was possibly wrong and unnecessary.

You have no feasible way of assessing that. It was a terrorist incident in progress, they acted to policy and training. If they didn't they're in trouble, that's the way it works.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by Percy, posted 12-09-2019 2:18 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Percy, posted 12-10-2019 5:13 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7793
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 423 of 531 (868328)
12-10-2019 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by Percy
12-10-2019 5:13 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

In the sense of being executions they pretty much are.

Sorry, you can't declare them both as executions in order to claim that they are therefore executions. I'm sure that you understand the difference between the two situations.

Since the police did not know the identify of the attacker at that time, they could not possibly know that the suspect had served time in prison for terrorist activities.

And since one victim died about fifteen minutes after the suspect was killed, and the other victim only a few minutes before the suspect was killed, it seems very unlikely that the police on the bridge with the guns could have known that the suspect had killed anyone.

That's just silly. The armed police would have known that they were being called to a terrorist incident. And remember, we'd just had a couple and they would have been trained how to react.

It wasn't declared a terrorist incident until after it was all over.

You can't possibly think that the public announcement that it's a terrorist incident after the fact has anything to do with what will have been communicated to the armed units when called in as a result of the emergency calls? Surely you're not that naive?

Policy and training is wrong. There should be an arrested suspect, not a dead one.

Says you, half a world away from the comfort of your armchair. You're in a group of one at the moment.

Time to change the policy and procedures.

I think you should stick to your campaign to stop ignorant, prejudiced and untrained police shooting black people for no reason and don't harm your position by arguing badly about lawful and necessary shooting of armed terrorists.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Percy, posted 12-10-2019 5:13 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by Percy, posted 12-11-2019 7:39 PM Tangle has responded

  
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