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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5781
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 241 of 276 (860162)
08-05-2019 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by ringo
08-05-2019 6:39 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
So you're trading one mass shooting for dozens of wrongful individual shootings by police. How does the body count balance?

The same way you would for anything else... by analyzing on a case by case basis and tally up the amount of justified shootings with unjustified shootings.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by ringo, posted 08-05-2019 6:39 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 12:08 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 242 of 276 (860239)
08-06-2019 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Hyroglyphx
08-05-2019 7:01 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
Hyroglyphx writes:

The same way you would for anything else... by analyzing on a case by case basis and tally up the amount of justified shootings with unjustified shootings.


Seriously? If there was one more death by unjustified cop-shooting than the number of deaths prevented by cops, you'd agree with disarming cops?

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-05-2019 7:01 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18794
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 243 of 276 (860740)
08-11-2019 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Hyroglyphx
08-05-2019 6:32 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
You're misrepresenting the proposal you're indirectly referring to. The proposal is not to keep the citizenry armed while disarming the police. It's to disarm everyone, including the police except for specially trained units. In particular we must eliminate from the entire country all weapons that fire highly lethal small, fast, light bullets. Here are the entry and exit wounds from an M4 round. The M4 is not too dissimilar from the AR-15:

Shown on the left is the bullet entrance wound through the right buttock. Shown on the right is the bullet exit wound through the thigh. If you're having trouble orienting yourself on that right photo, click on it to blow it up. He's lying on his back with his torso to the left. His right thigh is in the foreground. His genitals are near the top, as is his left ankle. Once you have a clear idea of how the patient is oriented you can see the massive damage created by the exit wound to the right thigh. We have to get rid of weapons that can inflict such massive trauma to the body.

People hit in the trunk by such bullets often die. They at least suffer massive life-changing damage. If hit in the lower trunk then huge parts of the digestive system can be pulverized, or the liver, or a kidney. If hit in the upper trunk then it had better be the right hand side where it will only pulverize the lung. If it hits anywhere near the left hand side then it will pulverize the heart.

Here's an article by a radiologist who describes the damage these guns can do: What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns

So, you gun nuts out there with your concealed carry or your open carry or whatever you carry, is this the kind of weapon your pop guns are really going to protect you from?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-05-2019 6:32 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2019 1:37 PM Percy has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5781
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 244 of 276 (860745)
08-11-2019 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Percy
08-11-2019 8:05 AM


Re: Dayton Shooting
You're misrepresenting the proposal you're indirectly referring to. The proposal is not to keep the citizenry armed while disarming the police. It's to disarm everyone, including the police except for specially trained units.

That won't happen. You could outlaw all guns tomorrow afternoon and offer this gun buy-back program, and you wouldn't even get rid of a fourth of the guns in the population. Ironically, the people most likely to give up their guns would have been the most responsible gun owners. These are the kinds of people who try hard not to violate the law in any way and are terrified of the consequences so they willingly acquiesce not to rock the boat.

That's the tragic irony of it. The very last people who have their guns taken away are the people you created the law for in the first place. The people you don't actually mind being armed are the one's affected most deeply.

In particular we must eliminate from the entire country all weapons that fire highly lethal small, fast, light bullets. Here are the entry and exit wounds from an M4 round. The M4 is not too dissimilar from the AR-15

An M4 and an AR15 are all variants of the M16 -- all which uses a standard .223 or .556 caliber round.

We have to get rid of weapons that can inflict such massive trauma to the body.

Its the subsonic speed at which the round travels that causes cavitation like that. But then a shotgun slug produces even more trauma than that. Its kind of a moot point. You can kill someone with a steak knife just as easily as you could a butcher knife. Are we measuring by the grotesqueness of a wound? What metric are we using here?

So, you gun nuts out there with your concealed carry or your open carry or whatever you carry, is this the kind of weapon your pop guns are really going to protect you from?

Yes. Those "pop guns" were exactly the same caliber (probably 9mm) that killed the Dayton gunmen.... by an armed police force.... in less than 30 seconds.

I'm sure you assume that I'm a member of NRA or whatever... I'm not. I'm just a regular guy. I don't like the way the NRA is something of a caricature. I am in favor of regulating deadly weapons and doing everything possible to keep them out of the hands of dangerous felons without keeping them out of the hands of people trying to protect themselves from those dangerous felons. But I do agree with one premise that they advocate.... If you give them an inch, they'll take a mile.

We all know the end game is total and complete disarmament. No politician is stupid enough to outright say the things that you're saying, but we know that's the ultimate motive. And how it will be done is by banning this first and then going for that down the line; incrementally trying to change the landscape.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Percy, posted 08-11-2019 8:05 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 08-11-2019 2:15 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 250 by Percy, posted 08-12-2019 11:24 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 270 by 1.61803, posted 08-13-2019 4:15 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 245 of 276 (860747)
08-11-2019 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Hyroglyphx
08-11-2019 1:37 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
Hyroglyphx writes:

You could outlaw all guns tomorrow afternoon and offer this gun buy-back program, and you wouldn't even get rid of a fourth of the guns in the population.


So that busts the myth that most gun-owners are law-abiding.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2019 1:37 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2019 2:53 PM ringo has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5781
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 246 of 276 (860751)
08-11-2019 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by ringo
08-11-2019 2:15 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
So that busts the myth that most gun-owners are law-abiding.

Not at all. Cocaine was once legal... it was legally placed into products. Once it became illegal, they had to stop using it as an additive.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 08-11-2019 2:15 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by ringo, posted 08-11-2019 2:57 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 247 of 276 (860752)
08-11-2019 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Hyroglyphx
08-11-2019 2:53 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
Hyroglyphx writes:

Cocaine was once legal... it was legally placed into products. Once it became illegal, they had to stop using it as an additive.


What has that got to do with what you said?

You said, "You could outlaw all guns tomorrow afternoon and offer this gun buy-back program, and you wouldn't even get rid of a fourth of the guns in the population." Doesn't that imply that gun owners would not give up their guns? That they would keep them illegally?


"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2019 2:53 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-11-2019 3:43 PM ringo has responded
 Message 249 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2019 3:58 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12676
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 248 of 276 (860757)
08-11-2019 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by ringo
08-11-2019 2:57 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
That, and I think he means that there would always be a market...legally or illegally and that legislation alone wont stop the spread of or existence of guns.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by ringo, posted 08-11-2019 2:57 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 08-12-2019 11:38 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5781
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 249 of 276 (860758)
08-11-2019 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by ringo
08-11-2019 2:57 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
What has that got to do with what you said?

Because owning weapons is not illegal at this point. If 2nd Amendment is amended then it will be. You're placing the cart before the horse.

You said, "You could outlaw all guns tomorrow afternoon and offer this gun buy-back program, and you wouldn't even get rid of a fourth of the guns in the population." Doesn't that imply that gun owners would not give up their guns? That they would keep them illegally?

Ah, I understand your point now. The way they will view it is the same way patriots were engaging in illegal behaviors of the Crown. They won't care and they will view it as usurpation by a government inching towards tyranny. The adage 'One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter' summarizes the concept.

So, sure, I guess they'll be illegal... and it won't stop them because they'll view it in righteous terms. But, hey, does illegal marijuana use grossly impact anyone to stop smoking weed? Nope. Do they think of themselves as hardened criminals? Nope.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by ringo, posted 08-11-2019 2:57 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by ringo, posted 08-12-2019 11:43 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18794
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 250 of 276 (860816)
08-12-2019 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Hyroglyphx
08-11-2019 1:37 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
Hyroglyphx writes:

You're misrepresenting the proposal you're indirectly referring to. The proposal is not to keep the citizenry armed while disarming the police. It's to disarm everyone, including the police except for specially trained units.

That won't happen.

No one's claiming it will happen. I'm merely pointing out that that's the only effective solution. I acknowledge the difficulties in getting from where we are to where we have to be.

In particular we must eliminate from the entire country all weapons that fire highly lethal small, fast, light bullets. Here are the entry and exit wounds from an M4 round. The M4 is not too dissimilar from the AR-15

An M4 and an AR15 are all variants of the M16 -- all which uses a standard .223 or .556 caliber round.

And they're too deadly to be in the hands of civilians, or much of anyone, actually.

We have to get rid of weapons that can inflict such massive trauma to the body.

Its the subsonic speed at which the round travels that causes cavitation like that. But then a shotgun slug produces even more trauma than that. Its kind of a moot point. You can kill someone with a steak knife just as easily as you could a butcher knife. Are we measuring by the grotesqueness of a wound? What metric are we using here?

The metric is deadliness. Shotguns can be grouped with assault weapons. Knives cannot compare in deadliness to assault weapons.

So, you gun nuts out there with your concealed carry or your open carry or whatever you carry, is this the kind of weapon your pop guns are really going to protect you from?

Yes. Those "pop guns" were exactly the same caliber (probably 9mm) that killed the Dayton gunmen.... by an armed police force.... in less than 30 seconds.

Yes, so typical, police officers patrolling just doors away when gunfire erupted and with the gunman's attention focused away from them. 10 dead and 27 wounded in just 32 seconds. These types of weapons do not belong in civilian hands.

I'm sure you assume that I'm a member of NRA or whatever... I'm not. I'm just a regular guy.

You're a gun nut who rationalizes the instruments of so much death.

I am in favor of regulating deadly weapons...

How about banning deadly weapons.

...and doing everything possible to keep them out of the hands of dangerous felons without keeping them out of the hands of people trying to protect themselves from those dangerous felons.

Guns make you less safe, not more. You're buying into the myth that a gun is a defensive instrument. It isn't.

But I do agree with one premise that they advocate.... If you give them an inch, they'll take a mile.

I don't know what this means. If you're talking about the NRA, you brought them up, not me.

We all know the end game is total and complete disarmament. No politician is stupid enough to outright say the things that you're saying, but we know that's the ultimate motive.

Accusing the people you're negotiating with of lying, dissembling and misrepresentation is probably not a good way to start.

And how it will be done is by banning this first and then going for that down the line; incrementally trying to change the landscape.

First we ban assault weapons, then we implement 100% background checks, gun registration, licensing, and home inspections. But those are gun control issues and this is the Police Shootings thread, so I'll repeat that most police should not be carrying guns.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2019 1:37 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-12-2019 2:05 PM Percy has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 251 of 276 (860819)
08-12-2019 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Thugpreacha
08-11-2019 3:43 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
Thugpreacha writes:

I think he means that there would always be a market...legally or illegally and that legislation alone wont stop the spread of or existence of guns.


That's what I said: The so-called "law-abiding" gun owners might not be so law-abiding if they didn't like the laws.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-11-2019 3:43 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 252 of 276 (860821)
08-12-2019 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Hyroglyphx
08-11-2019 3:58 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
Hyroglyphx writes:

You're placing the cart before the horse.


No, I'm predicting what will happen if you let go of the horse.

Hyroglyphx writes:

They won't care and they will view it as usurpation by a government inching towards tyranny.


So it's a basic disrespect for government and the rule of law.

Hyroglyphx writes:

So, sure, I guess they'll be illegal... and it won't stop them because they'll view it in righteous terms.


As I've always said, when guns are outlawed, it'll be easier to spot the outlaws.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2019 3:58 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5781
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 253 of 276 (860850)
08-12-2019 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Percy
08-12-2019 11:24 AM


Re: Dayton Shooting
The metric is deadliness. Shotguns can be grouped with assault weapons. Knives cannot compare in deadliness to assault weapons.

I'm just clarifying because you showed images of entrance and exit wounds, as it to insinuate that the more grotesque or horrific the injury that it should correspond to whether or not it should be accessible to civilians. A hunting rifle is even more powerful though and the ballistic wounds they inflict on the human body are even more pronounced.

Yes, so typical, police officers patrolling just doors away when gunfire erupted and with the gunman's attention focused away from them. 10 dead and 27 wounded in just 32 seconds. These types of weapons do not belong in civilian hands.

You advanced a theory that stated police should not be armed, except for SWAT teams. This event gives you tangible evidence of why police are armed. Your alternative was a much higher body count while waiting for SWAT to arrive. Neutralized in 30 seconds is a lot better than 30 minutes... and I'm being extremely generous with a 30 minute turn around.

This thread is not talking about civilians being armed, its about "Police Shootings" and your advancement of the belief that police should not be armed. Here is the reason why they should.

You're a gun nut who rationalizes the instruments of so much death.

I rationalize the necessity while lamenting the fact that it is an unfortunate reality. I approach reality as it is, not how I wish it to be.

Guns make you less safe, not more. You're buying into the myth that a gun is a defensive instrument. It isn't.

Except when it is. I can use a hammer to either hit nails or hit people in the head with. But as usual, your side of the aisle never wants to address the actual problem and instead focuses on the instrument used. You can't "ban" your way into compliance although its clearly worked well banning North Korea and Iran from owning nuclear weapons. We know more about the shooters than we do the victims and even less about the people who stopped the pieces of shit. Maybe the media should de-platform them and stop giving losers the recognition they're so desperate to have.

Accusing the people you're negotiating with of lying, dissembling and misrepresentation is probably not a good way to start.

Its the truth. Its the death by a thousand cuts strategy.

police should not be carrying guns.

So instead of increasing police proficiency you'd rather police just be useless. That's a great plan, Percy. That way the Dayton shooter would have killed 5 times as many.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Percy, posted 08-12-2019 11:24 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 08-12-2019 5:28 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 255 by Percy, posted 08-12-2019 5:40 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 254 of 276 (860865)
08-12-2019 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Hyroglyphx
08-12-2019 2:05 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
Hyroglyphx writes:

So instead of increasing police proficiency you'd rather police just be useless.


I find it odd that so many Americans don't like "government interference" in their lives but at the same time they're in favor of giving more power to the police.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-12-2019 2:05 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-12-2019 11:56 PM ringo has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18794
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 255 of 276 (860868)
08-12-2019 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Hyroglyphx
08-12-2019 2:05 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
We should probably move the gun control part of this discussion to the Gun Control III thread, but I'll reply to most of what you say.

Hyroglyphx writes:

The metric is deadliness. Shotguns can be grouped with assault weapons. Knives cannot compare in deadliness to assault weapons.

I'm just clarifying because you showed images of entrance and exit wounds, as it to insinuate that the more grotesque or horrific the injury that it should correspond to whether or not it should be accessible to civilians.

The images illustrate why assault rifles are so much more deadly than normal firearms, because of what the bullets do once they enter the body. I'm sorry if anyone found the exit wound grotesque or horrific. It wasn't my intention to shock but to illustrate why these weapons are so much more lethal than firearms that fire bullets at much lower velocities. Such deadliness doesn't belong in the hands of civilians.

A hunting rifle is even more powerful though and the ballistic wounds they inflict on the human body are even more pronounced.

If some types of hunting rifles become a public menace like assault rifles then we can think about banning those, too, but if you look at the Wikipedia article on Mass Shootings in the United States you won't find hunting rifles mentioned once.

Yes, so typical, police officers patrolling just doors away when gunfire erupted and with the gunman's attention focused away from them. 10 dead and 27 wounded in just 32 seconds. These types of weapons do not belong in civilian hands.

You advanced a theory that stated police should not be armed, except for SWAT teams. This event gives you tangible evidence of why police are armed. Your alternative was a much higher body count while waiting for SWAT to arrive. Neutralized in 30 seconds is a lot better than 30 minutes... and I'm being extremely generous with a 30 minute turn around.

Again, that's just so typical that six police officers were patrolling a short distance away, right? That's the typical response time in Dayton, just 32 seconds, right? And that's why you're using this example as part of your argument, because you know it's representative, right?

The message of Dayton is that an assault rifle was able to kill 10 and injure 27 in in just 32 seconds. Assault weapons must be banned, and ultimately we should disarm everyone except special units.

This thread is not talking about civilians being armed,...

True, as I mentioned up top.

...its about "Police Shootings" and your advancement of the belief that police should not be armed.

That's true, but again, you're being repeatedly misleading. The proposal is not to disarm the police while allowing everyone else to remain armed. The proposal is to disarm everyone except special police units.

Here is the reason why they should.

If no one's armed then it's no reason.

You're a gun nut who rationalizes the instruments of so much death.

I rationalize the necessity while lamenting the fact that it is an unfortunate reality. I approach reality as it is, not how I wish it to be.

We should accept reality as it, but not accept that it must always be so.

Guns make you less safe, not more. You're buying into the myth that a gun is a defensive instrument. It isn't.

Except when it is.

Except it never is. A shield or a vest is a defensive device. A gun only protects by going offensive. A gun's offensive nature is why this thread exists, because so many police "defend" themselves by shooting people. A situation described several times in this thread is of deceased civilians lying on the ground next to their cell phones who are no longer a threat, but then they weren't a threat before, either.

But as usual, your side of the aisle...

My side of the aisle? I don't have a side or an aisle. I'm a voice of one here advocating for disarming everyone as far as I know.

...never wants to address the actual problem and instead focuses on the instrument used.

More training is not the answer.

Accusing the people you're negotiating with of lying, dissembling and misrepresentation is probably not a good way to start.

Its the truth. Its the death by a thousand cuts strategy.

I think a better approach is to treat people as you would want to be treated.

police should not be carrying guns.

So instead of increasing police proficiency you'd rather police just be useless. That's a great plan, Percy. That way the Dayton shooter would have killed 5 times as many.

I don't understand why you've made this misleading statement multiple times in a single message. Again, the proposal is to disarm everyone, not just the police. I'd like us to eventually join Iceland, Ireland, New Zealand, Norway and the United Kingdom.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-12-2019 2:05 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by DrJones*, posted 08-12-2019 5:46 PM Percy has responded
 Message 265 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-13-2019 12:33 AM Percy has responded

    
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