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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1984
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 256 of 340 (860870)
08-12-2019 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Percy
08-12-2019 5:40 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
The images illustrate why assault rifles are so much more deadly than normal firearms, because of what the bullets do once they enter the body.

there are multitudes of non assault rifles that fire 5.56NATO/.223REM. Being fired from an M-4 doesn't make a round more deadly than an identical one fired from a REM700.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Percy, posted 08-12-2019 5:40 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Theodoric, posted 08-12-2019 6:00 PM DrJones* has responded
 Message 261 by Percy, posted 08-12-2019 7:56 PM DrJones* has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6795
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 257 of 340 (860871)
08-12-2019 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by DrJones*
08-12-2019 5:46 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
5.56 is not much of a hunting round other than for varmints. Yes, people do use it for deer, but they are not ethical hunters. That being said by legislation in most states in the USA, hunting rifles can not hold more than five rounds.
Also, the Rem 700 is a bolt action rifle. Though the round is not more deadly because of the gun, the particular gun can make it more destructive.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by DrJones*, posted 08-12-2019 5:46 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by DrJones*, posted 08-12-2019 6:24 PM Theodoric has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1984
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 258 of 340 (860873)
08-12-2019 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Theodoric
08-12-2019 6:00 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
Though the round is not more deadly because of the gun, the particular gun can make it more destructive.

Tell that to Percy. He seems to think that the danger of assault rifles comes from the round they fire. And yes depending on the model a REM 700 probably has a longer barrel length than an M-4, giving it a greater muzzle velocity.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Theodoric, posted 08-12-2019 6:00 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Theodoric, posted 08-12-2019 6:39 PM DrJones* has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6795
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 259 of 340 (860874)
08-12-2019 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by DrJones*
08-12-2019 6:24 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
That does not mitigate the destructive power on humans of the round. How fast can someone kill with a bolt action with 5 rounds vs semi auto with 100 rounds. I think the point Percy made has merit. You seem to want to be a little pedantic and are getting lost in the weeds.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by DrJones*, posted 08-12-2019 6:24 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by DrJones*, posted 08-12-2019 7:36 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1984
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 260 of 340 (860876)
08-12-2019 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Theodoric
08-12-2019 6:39 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
That does not mitigate the destructive power on humans of the round.

I'm not saying it does. Percy said in the message that i was replying to that

The images illustrate why assault rifles are so much more deadly than normal firearms, because of what the bullets do once they enter the body

I'm trying to tell him that he's wrong, that a bullet fired from an assault rifle is not more deadly than one fired from a hunting rifle.

You seem to want to be a little pedantic

As Percy (and everyone else) can see from the current flood geology thread with Faith, it's a little annoying trying to have a discussion with someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Theodoric, posted 08-12-2019 6:39 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18963
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 261 of 340 (860879)
08-12-2019 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by DrJones*
08-12-2019 5:46 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
DrJones* writes:

The images illustrate why assault rifles are so much more deadly than normal firearms, because of what the bullets do once they enter the body.

there are multitudes of non assault rifles that fire 5.56NATO/.223REM. Being fired from an M-4 doesn't make a round more deadly than an identical one fired from a REM700.

Is your point that it isn't just assault rifles that fire high velocity rounds? If so then yes, I understand. In my view we don't need weapon/ammunition combos that cause such massive bodily harm. They should be off limits to civilians.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by DrJones*, posted 08-12-2019 5:46 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by DrJones*, posted 08-13-2019 12:07 AM Percy has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5858
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 262 of 340 (860886)
08-12-2019 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by ringo
08-12-2019 5:28 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
I find it odd that so many Americans don't like "government interference" in their lives but at the same time they're in favor of giving more power to the police.

There's never been a time in American policing where they weren't armed, so they aren't gaining any power, they're just retaining it. Police without guns is like firefighters without houses. It just doesn't make any sense.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 08-12-2019 5:28 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by ringo, posted 08-13-2019 11:42 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 269 by xongsmith, posted 08-13-2019 3:20 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1984
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 263 of 340 (860887)
08-13-2019 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Percy
08-12-2019 7:56 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
In my view we don't need weapon/ammunition combos that cause such massive bodily harm. They should be off limits to civilians.

so you want to take away all the hunting rifles as well.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Percy, posted 08-12-2019 7:56 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Percy, posted 08-13-2019 12:29 AM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18963
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 264 of 340 (860889)
08-13-2019 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by DrJones*
08-13-2019 12:07 AM


Re: Dayton Shooting
DrJones* writes:

so you want to take away all the hunting rifles as well

The ones with high velocity bullets, sure. What was the muzzle velocity of hunting rifles a hundred fifty years ago when hunting was more of a necessity?

—Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by DrJones*, posted 08-13-2019 12:07 AM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5858
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 265 of 340 (860890)
08-13-2019 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Percy
08-12-2019 5:40 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
Again, that's just so typical that six police officers were patrolling a short distance away, right? That's the typical response time in Dayton, just 32 seconds, right? And that's why you're using this example as part of your argument, because you know it's representative, right?

It is typical in a crowded, urban area that police are in high numbers where alcohol-fueled fights are common. Even if it was in a suburban neighborhood, response times would have been under 5 minutes for patrol cops. It takes quite awhile for SWAT to mobilize. For the sake of the argument lets say those officers were there but they were unarmed. What then are they going to do to help the situation? Why do you even have them if they're powerless to help in any meaningful way?

And here's another point: Canadian police carry guns. Australian cops carry guns. Swedish cops carry guns. German cops carry guns. French cops carry guns. But your sole issue seems to be with American cops. Your reply will likely be that those police agencies don't kill hundreds of people a year like American cops. But doesn't that speak to the point that a better trained police force is a safer police force? Or at the very least, its just makes common friggin' sense that so long as arms are available to civilian population that police be able to meet those challenges with a fighting chance? It would at least make more sense to first disarm the populace to give these cops a fighting chance. Then if the numbers drastically reduce you can introduce whether cops need them. I can tell you now that as of this moment, they need them!

The message of Dayton is that an assault rifle was able to kill 10 and injure 27 in in just 32 seconds. Assault weapons must be banned, and ultimately we should disarm everyone except special units.

Maybe you might find it ironic that the Dayton shooter shared your beliefs on the subject. The take away is that he was a sick and deluded kid... one of many. You might recall Austin had a serial bomber about a year ago. He used all kinds of homemade items to create his bombs. The focal point isn't the items or tools its the sick mind and how to reach these sick bastards before they fall off of the cliff of sanity. Sick people will always find ways to kill people... as much as it sucks, serial killers and spree killers exist. They just do. For them, their path is kill or be killed.

That's true, but again, you're being repeatedly misleading. The proposal is not to disarm the police while allowing everyone else to remain armed. The proposal is to disarm everyone except special police units.

Why do you suppose even nations where guns are heavily restricted still carry arms? Spoiler alert: Because people still get a hold of them... and because a gun isn't the only weapon capable of justifying deadly force. If someone has a machete you don't pull out your pepper spray.

Except it never is. A shield or a vest is a defensive device. A gun only protects by going offensive. A gun's offensive nature is why this thread exists, because so many police "defend" themselves by shooting people. A situation described several times in this thread is of deceased civilians lying on the ground next to their cell phones who are no longer a threat, but then they weren't a threat before, either.

Did you have a specific case in mind?

More training is not the answer.

Except in Canada. Or Australia. Or wherever, so long as it isn't the US.

I don't understand why you've made this misleading statement multiple times in a single message. Again, the proposal is to disarm everyone, not just the police. I'd like us to eventually join Iceland, Ireland, New Zealand, Norway and the United Kingdom.

Maybe you should move there then. The 2nd Amendment shall not be infringed


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Percy, posted 08-12-2019 5:40 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Percy, posted 08-13-2019 5:34 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17518
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 266 of 340 (860919)
08-13-2019 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Hyroglyphx
08-12-2019 11:56 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
Hyroglyphx writes:

Police without guns is like firefighters without houses. It just doesn't make any sense.


That's obviously nonsense. Police in Britain don't have guns.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-12-2019 11:56 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-13-2019 12:23 PM ringo has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5858
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 267 of 340 (860921)
08-13-2019 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by ringo
08-13-2019 11:42 AM


Re: Dayton Shooting
That's obviously nonsense. Police in Britain don't have guns.

There's like 5 countries that doesn't have an armed police force, making GB way outside the norm. There's actually more nations that don't even have a standing army than that. So, yeah, my point stands.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by ringo, posted 08-13-2019 11:42 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 08-13-2019 12:27 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17518
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 268 of 340 (860922)
08-13-2019 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Hyroglyphx
08-13-2019 12:23 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
Hyroglyphx writes:

There's like 5 countries that doesn't have an armed police force, making GB way outside the norm.


"Outside the norm" is irrelevant. The fact is it can be done.

Edited by ringo, : Added quote.


"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-13-2019 12:23 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1912
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 269 of 340 (860925)
08-13-2019 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Hyroglyphx
08-12-2019 11:56 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
Hyroglypx wites:
Police without guns is like firefighters without houses.

Didn't you mean "hoses"???


"I'd rather be an American than a Trump Supporter."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-12-2019 11:56 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2925
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 270 of 340 (860928)
08-13-2019 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Hyroglyphx
08-11-2019 1:37 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
Hyroglyphx writes:

Yes. Those "pop guns" were exactly the same caliber (probably 9mm) that killed the Dayton gunmen.... by an armed police force.... in less than 30 seconds.

Whenever the subject of gun control comes up, gun proponents are quick to say the more guns is the answer. Armed good guys can protect us.
The Dayton shooter killed nine and wounded 14 people in less than 30 seconds.

That is pretty much the best case scenario for law enforcement and that many still died and where wounded. How come that dude was able to possess a weapon that could do that kind of damage in less than 30 seconds? It is obvious the answer is not good guys with guns. I has to be reducing the ability of some asshole to inflict that kind of carnage. I am a gun owner and I do not feel the need to go out and purchase a 100 round mag for a AR. I do hunt and I do have fire arms. But I have no problem if legislation is passed to keep mall ninjas from possessing weapons of mass destruction. 30 seconds is a long time for someone with a semiautomatic high capacity long gun. I think that if someone wants one they should be screened appropriately and have the background and skills to have them. There is no question that people can kill with just about anything, but like the guy in Australia recently if he had a high capacity fire arm rather than a knife he would of done much more killing imo.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-11-2019 1:37 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
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