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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Percy
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Posts: 18963
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 271 of 340 (860932)
08-13-2019 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Hyroglyphx
08-13-2019 12:33 AM


Re: Dayton Shooting
I'm switching back to the topic. I'll address everything in your post related to police shootings.

And here's another point: Canadian police carry guns. Australian cops carry guns. Swedish cops carry guns. German cops carry guns. French cops carry guns. But your sole issue seems to be with American cops.

Nope.

Your reply will likely be that those police agencies don't kill hundreds of people a year like American cops.

Nope.

But a point to consider is that police departments outside the US are not driven into a high state of paranoia by the possibility of a highly armed civilian with more firepower than a British battalion from the Revolutionary War, so they're less likely to pull the trigger.

But doesn't that speak to the point that a better trained police force is a safer police force?

This point was last raised in February, and the answer hasn't changed. The reason training won't solve the police shooting problem is the same as why training won't solve the motor vehicle accident problem: it's impossible to maintain a high level of training across so many people.

Or at the very least, it just makes common friggin' sense that so long as arms are available to civilian population that police be able to meet those challenges with a fighting chance?

This point has been raised and answered several times before, not just in my last few messages but also in the very message you're replying to. You quote it just a little bit further on.

It would at least make more sense to first disarm the populace to give these cops a fighting chance.

Okay, I give up, you got me. You've raised this point several times in this thread, and I've given the same answer each time, but I admit now that I've been lying. What I really want is to disarm the police but not the civilians. When I said stuff like, "I don't know how we get from where we are to where we need to be," what I really meant was that I want to render the police defenseless in the face of an armed citizenry. Way to go, Sherlock, you figured out my secret plot.

The message of Dayton is that an assault rifle was able to kill 10 and injure 27 in in just 32 seconds. Assault weapons must be banned, and ultimately we should disarm everyone except special units.

Maybe you might find it ironic that the Dayton shooter shared your beliefs on the subject.

There's nothing in your link resembling my beliefs. Accuracy isn't your strong point, is it.

The take away is that he was a sick and deluded kid... one of many. You might recall Austin had a serial bomber about a year ago. He used all kinds of homemade items to create his bombs. The focal point isn't the items or tools its the sick mind and how to reach these sick bastards before they fall off of the cliff of sanity. Sick people will always find ways to kill people... as much as it sucks, serial killers and spree killers exist. They just do. For them, their path is kill or be killed.

The evidence says the fewer the guns the fewer the murders.

That's true, but again, you're being repeatedly misleading. The proposal is not to disarm the police while allowing everyone else to remain armed. The proposal is to disarm everyone except special police units.

Why do you suppose even nations where guns are heavily restricted still carry arms? Spoiler alert: Because people still get a hold of them... and because a gun isn't the only weapon capable of justifying deadly force. If someone has a machete you don't pull out your pepper spray.

Your meaning is unclear. Are you talking about police, civilians or both?

Except it never is. A shield or a vest is a defensive device. A gun only protects by going offensive. A gun's offensive nature is why this thread exists, because so many police "defend" themselves by shooting people. A situation described several times in this thread is of deceased civilians lying on the ground next to their cell phones who are no longer a threat, but then they weren't a threat before, either.

Did you have a specific case in mind?

No. Any of the ones mentioned in this thread will do.

More training is not the answer.

Except in Canada. Or Australia. Or wherever, so long as it isn't the US.

Your meaning is unclear again, I won't try to guess.

I don't understand why you've made this misleading statement multiple times in a single message. Again, the proposal is to disarm everyone, not just the police. I'd like us to eventually join Iceland, Ireland, New Zealand, Norway and the United Kingdom.

Maybe you should move there then.

Gee, why does this sound so familiar?

The 2nd Amendment shall not be infringed

Spoken like a true gun nut.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-13-2019 12:33 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Theodoric, posted 08-13-2019 10:45 PM Percy has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6795
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 272 of 340 (860938)
08-13-2019 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Percy
08-13-2019 5:34 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
It is amazing how the ammosexuals do not ever quote the full 2nd amendment.
quote:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

This too can be amended.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Percy, posted 08-13-2019 5:34 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Percy, posted 08-14-2019 8:48 AM Theodoric has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18963
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 273 of 340 (860940)
08-14-2019 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Theodoric
08-13-2019 10:45 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
Theodoric writes:

quote:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

This too can be amended.

And in the meantime it could be interpreted as written.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Theodoric, posted 08-13-2019 10:45 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Theodoric, posted 08-14-2019 8:56 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6795
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 274 of 340 (860941)
08-14-2019 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Percy
08-14-2019 8:48 AM


Re: Dayton Shooting
Agreed. I should have put that into my post. Ammosexuals some how completely disregard the first two clauses that dictate the extent of the right that shall not be infringed.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Percy, posted 08-14-2019 8:48 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18963
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 275 of 340 (861037)
08-16-2019 7:13 AM


A Police Shooting with Body Cam Footage: What Do You Think?
On August 3rd of this year in Colorado Springs De'Von Bailey and a friend were stopped by police and questioned about a robbery. During the questioning Bailey turned and ran away. He was shot three times in the back and once in the back of the arm. He later died in the hospital.

Police claimed that Bailey was reaching for a gun, and a gun was found in a pocket of his shorts. Body cam footage is not inconsistent with reaching for a gun. Bailey's right arm is not pumping as he's running, and his right hand is positioned on the right front of his shorts. He could have been reaching for the gun, or he could have been trying to pull at the pocket to move it away from between his legs where it would have hindered his running. The pocket with the gun was between his legs once he was lying facedown on the ground.

The police who fired the shots might be in serious legal jeopardy, but it depends upon how you interpret the body cam footage. Was he really reaching for a gun while on the dead run, or just trying to keep it from hindering his running. Colorado law prohibits shooting a fleeing suspect unless there is imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to the officer, and could a fleeing suspect fumbling for a heavy object in his pocket really be considered an imminent threat? Here's a lengthy video from the initial 911 call to the aftermath, you might want to fast forward to the body cam footage, two in all, one from each of two officers:

CSPD OIS August 3 2019 from COS Police Department on Vimeo

Here's a recent article: De'Von Bailey's family calls his death 'wholly unjustified' after Colorado Springs police release bodycam footage

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-16-2019 11:23 AM Percy has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5858
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 276 of 340 (861052)
08-16-2019 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Percy
08-16-2019 7:13 AM


Re: A Police Shooting with Body Cam Footage: What Do You Think?
The police who fired the shots might be in serious legal jeopardy, but it depends upon how you interpret the body cam footage. Was he really reaching for a gun while on the dead run, or just trying to keep it from hindering his running. Colorado law prohibits shooting a fleeing suspect unless there is imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to the officer, and could a fleeing suspect fumbling for a heavy object in his pocket really be considered an imminent threat?

Based upon the call text, what was alleged was an Aggravated Robbery using a deadly weapon. The two subject's matched the description and the area given by the complainant. So the officers were right to ask them not to reach towards their waistband or pockets, to keep their hands up, and to perform a frisk for weapons. The subject, knowing he's got a firearm on him and is potentially facing 5 to 99 years for a 1st degree felony, flees.

What it looks like to me is that he immediately reaches towards his waistline, most likely to hold the gun in place so that it wouldn't fall while he was running. He was wearing basketball shorts so the chance it would have fallen out at a dead sprint is likely.

The two officers see him reaching for his waistband. At this point they have probable cause to believe he is armed, but cannot definitively state if he was at that point. In order to invoke Tennessee vs Gardner, they must be able to articulate the following:

quote:
A police officer may not seize an unarmed, non-dangerous suspect by shooting him dead...however...Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force.

We can all probably agree that it was a terrible idea to rob someone with the use of a deadly weapon. We can all probably agree that it was a terrible idea to run. We can all probably agree that it was a terrible idea to be reaching for your waistband given what the officers expressly articulated to the subject beforehand.

The looming question then was whether it was reasonable or unreasonable to fire at a fleeing felon in the back without being able to certify whether it was a weapon or not. The other question was whether he was holding the gun in place to prevent it from falling or whether his intentions were to pull it out, turn around, and fire on the officers. That remains to be seen, but we know that can and does happen and that all it takes is a second to turn and fire. And action is always faster than reaction

My guess is that the officers will be no-billed and that the courts will ultimately rule that given the totality of the circumstances involved it was objectively reasonable to use deadly force.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Percy, posted 08-16-2019 7:13 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Percy, posted 08-17-2019 3:32 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18963
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 277 of 340 (861131)
08-17-2019 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Hyroglyphx
08-16-2019 11:23 AM


Re: A Police Shooting with Body Cam Footage: What Do You Think?
Hyroglyphx writes:

My guess is that the officers will be no-billed and that the courts will ultimately rule that given the totality of the circumstances involved it was objectively reasonable to use deadly force.

Not only will the police be no-billed, this is unlikely to reach a grand jury. It is very likely that the district attorney will clear the police, as happens in almost all police homicide cases. That's one of the main points of this thread, that police are almost never held accountable, at least not criminally. Civilly I'd wager that Colorado Springs will pay out $3-5 million.

About the shooting of actress Vanessa Marquez, a $20 million wrongful death suit was filed back in February, but there's been no recent news.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-16-2019 11:23 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18963
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 278 of 340 (863300)
09-24-2019 9:54 AM


Another Example Why Police Shouldn't Have Guns
The trial is just beginning, but it was some months ago that Dallas police officer Amber Guyger walked into her apartment, saw a stranger lurking in the dark who did not obey her orders, and shot him dead. Only problem was she was on the wrong floor. She was on the fourth floor, not the third, and had walked into the apartment of the now deceased Botham Jean, who lived one floor above her.

Police officers, even with all their training and practice, make deadly mistakes. Issuing every police officer a weapon as if it were the wild west out there is a recipe for firearm mishaps ranging from the insignificant to true tragedies like this one. And as this recent article about the trial makes clear (Ex-lover of officer who shot neighbor acknowledges racy texts but denies planned rendezvous), police are just average people with a little training.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Fix typo.


Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Taq, posted 09-24-2019 3:12 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 280 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-24-2019 7:16 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 307 by Percy, posted 09-28-2019 8:35 AM Percy has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8159
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 279 of 340 (863321)
09-24-2019 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Percy
09-24-2019 9:54 AM


Re: Another Example Why Police Shouldn't Have Guns
Percy writes:

The trial is just beginning, but it was some months ago that Dallas police officer Amber Guyger walked into her apartment, saw a stranger lurking in the dark who did not obey her orders, and shot him dead. Only problem was she was on the wrong floor. She was on the fourth floor, not the third, and had walked into the apartment of the now deceased Botham Jean, who lived one floor above her.

The question that always comes to my mind is what charges would a 25 year old black man be facing if he did the same thing and wasn't a cop.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Percy, posted 09-24-2019 9:54 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5858
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 280 of 340 (863334)
09-24-2019 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Percy
09-24-2019 9:54 AM


Re: Another Example Why Police Shouldn't Have Guns
Police officers, even with all their training and practice, make a deadly mistakes. Issuing every police officer a weapon as if it were the wild west out there is a recipe for firearm mishaps ranging from the insignificant to true tragedies like this one. And as this recent article about the trial makes clear (Ex-lover of officer who shot neighbor acknowledges racy texts but denies planned rendezvous), police are just average people with a little training.

This has nothing to do with training or the lack thereof. I'm not buying the narrative that she, whoops, went to the wrong apartment. There's about a million reasons for why that is implausible. It is far more likely that she knew that man, whether there was a past sexual experience between them or they had some kind of previous, brief exchange (maybe even something as small as her perception that he cut her off in the parking garage). But all indications at this juncture would lead to a conclusion that it was no accident.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Percy, posted 09-24-2019 9:54 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Theodoric, posted 09-25-2019 4:11 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5858
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 281 of 340 (863342)
09-25-2019 12:17 AM


Its impossible to believe that people actually defended the crystal clear actions of a homicidal maniac while demonizing someone that has the inherent right to protect themselves. This has to be trolling... no one could actually defend it.

Here is a prime example of why police officers, even in the UK, should be armed. There's no SWAT team that's going to come to your rescue. You have seconds or fractions of a second to defend your life or you die. Its really that simple.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by vimesey, posted 09-25-2019 12:31 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 290 by Percy, posted 09-25-2019 10:45 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1010
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 282 of 340 (863343)
09-25-2019 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 12:17 AM


Here is a prime example of why police officers, even in the UK, should be armed.

No thanks. We’ve done the maths and worked out that more guns leads to more deaths. We’ll stick with fewer deaths.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 12:17 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 1:26 AM vimesey has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5858
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 283 of 340 (863345)
09-25-2019 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by vimesey
09-25-2019 12:31 AM


No thanks. We’ve done the maths and worked out that more guns leads to more deaths. We’ll stick with fewer deaths.

Fewer deaths for whom? Knife-wielding assailants or police officers/innocent civilians? This thread is specific to police carrying guns. Given a knife is a deadly weapon and given that UK knife violence continues to rise, seems that there is an insufficient way to handle it and that current legislation doesn't curb it. Shocking.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by vimesey, posted 09-25-2019 12:31 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by vimesey, posted 09-25-2019 1:42 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 289 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2019 4:49 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1010
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 284 of 340 (863348)
09-25-2019 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 1:26 AM


We don’t like to kill people. Either deliberately, if they’re wielding a knife, or accidentally, if the police officer is an error prone human being. Call us crazy like that.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 1:26 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 2:52 AM vimesey has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5858
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 285 of 340 (863352)
09-25-2019 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by vimesey
09-25-2019 1:42 AM


We don’t like to kill people. Either deliberately, if they’re wielding a knife, or accidentally, if the police officer is an error prone human being. Call us crazy like that.

Nobody said anything about liking it. But either one shit head dies or he kills many others in the absence of direct intervention.

Pacifism isn't the abrogation of violence... pacifism IS violence.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by vimesey, posted 09-25-2019 1:42 AM vimesey has responded

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 Message 286 by AZPaul3, posted 09-25-2019 3:19 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 287 by vimesey, posted 09-25-2019 4:08 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
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