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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
AZPaul3
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Posts: 4630
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 286 of 322 (863353)
09-25-2019 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 2:52 AM


Pacifism isn't the abrogation of violence... pacifism IS violence.

Thank you, Winston Smith. The Ministry of Truth awaits your return.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 2:52 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 997
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 287 of 322 (863354)
09-25-2019 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 2:52 AM


Pacifism is violence ? Typical diversionary sloganing.

You seem to be a fan of savagery. Someone wields a knife - kill him ! In another post, you admire the lion for killing what it eats.

There's a preference here for civilisation over savagery. We've seen the ultimate expression of savagery in a modern society and we're not fans.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 2:52 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 11:34 AM vimesey has responded

    
Theodoric
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Posts: 6654
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 288 of 322 (863355)
09-25-2019 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Hyroglyphx
09-24-2019 7:16 PM


Re: Another Example Why Police Shouldn't Have Guns
But you have no basis for this assumption. There is as of yet no evidence to back this scenario. Gut feelings have no bearing on actual facts.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-24-2019 7:16 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7085
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 289 of 322 (863356)
09-25-2019 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 1:26 AM


Hydro writes:

Given a knife is a deadly weapon

A knife becomes a deadly weapon when it's used that way. Like a car, battery acid, a golf club, a brick. An military assault rifle has only one purpose.

and given that UK knife violence continues to rise,

Knife crime has become a problem in youth gangs in some parts of our cities, mostly London and mostly drug driven. It's a very worrying issue. Even so, there were 'only' 263 knife murders in the UK between July 2017 and July 2018. I won't embarrass you with the US figure.

It's a seems that there is an insufficient way to handle it and that current legislation doesn't curb it.

Our police are armed when they need to be. Increasingly so given the terrorism threat. It's something that even right wing leaning people here are concerned about. But there is absolutely no demand from anywhere to arm the bobby on the beat - not even the police. We know it would lead to even more needless death. We need to solve the underlying problem, not go around shooting people.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 1:26 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 12:08 PM Tangle has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18868
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 290 of 322 (863362)
09-25-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 12:17 AM


Not watching a five minute video. Please describe what happened and provide a link to an article.

Here is a prime example of why police officers, even in the UK, should be armed. There's no SWAT team that's going to come to your rescue. You have seconds or fractions of a second to defend your life or you die. Its really that simple.

There of course exist situations where being armed increases safety, but they are overwhelmed by the situations where it increases danger. It's statistical. You can even look at it simplistically as just a trivial proportion. The greater the proportion of people armed, the greater the number of firearm injuries and deaths.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 12:17 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 12:17 PM Percy has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 291 of 322 (863368)
09-25-2019 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by vimesey
09-25-2019 4:08 AM


You seem to be a fan of savagery. Someone wields a knife - kill him ! In another post, you admire the lion for killing what it eats.

I'm simply trying to convey a reality that you would like to pretend doesn't exist... namely that savagery exists and has to be dealt with.

There's a preference here for civilisation over savagery. We've seen the ultimate expression of savagery in a modern society and we're not fans.

Yeah, and the pacifist prefers peace but gets none of it because he's a pacifist and because he wants to believe that savagery can be curbed by his own sense of compassion.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by vimesey, posted 09-25-2019 4:08 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 8081
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 292 of 322 (863370)
09-25-2019 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 11:34 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:

I'm simply trying to convey a reality that you would like to pretend doesn't exist... namely that savagery exists and has to be dealt with.

Human fallibility exists, and that fallibility results in unneeded deaths when firearms are introduced to the mix. Reaching towards your back pocket to grab your ID is not savagery, yet a US citizen was killed by police for doing just that.

Unfortunately, our police have been trained to shoot first and ask questions later. If they feel threatened they are taught to shoot people. Perhaps we should ask the question if it might be better to train them to flee the situation if they feel threatened and call in the appropriate force if its needed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 11:34 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 293 of 322 (863371)
09-25-2019 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Theodoric
09-25-2019 4:11 AM


Re: Another Example Why Police Shouldn't Have Guns
But you have no basis for this assumption. There is as of yet no evidence to back this scenario. Gut feelings have no bearing on actual facts.

I said there were reasons for why I didn't believe it. Just because I didn't go into those reasons is not the same as a "gut feeling." Prior to the sounds of gunfire, witnesses heard Guyger banging on the door and yelling, "Let me in!" Unless you think she was randomly banging to be let into a strangers residence, I'd say that's a fairly good indication that she knew him (even if briefly) and that it directly challenges the theory that she mistakenly entered the wrong apartment.

So then can I assume that you believe it wasn't murder, for which she has been charged and tried for, but you think its manslaughter?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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vimesey
Member
Posts: 997
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 6.4


(1)
Message 294 of 322 (863372)
09-25-2019 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 11:34 AM


We deal with savagery by locking up those people whom we catch doing it and whom we successfully prosecute for doing it. Pretending that we don't punish savagery is disingenuous. We deal with it robustly and in a civilised manner. We use guns when we absolutely have to, and then only use highly trained specialist officers. In the vast majority of cases, we do not use and do not need to use guns. This approach generally works well, and leads to a lower death rate than would be the case with guns. Killing people is bad.

The human race has come a long way since we came down from the trees - personally I have no desire for us to go back there. Your mileage may vary.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 11:34 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 295 of 322 (863375)
09-25-2019 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Tangle
09-25-2019 4:49 AM


A knife becomes a deadly weapon when it's used that way. Like a car, battery acid, a golf club, a brick. An military assault rifle has only one purpose.

All tools and objects are just tools and objects until someone wields it as a weapon. A tank, clearly an instrument designed for war, could also be used as an ambulance. All that ever matters is which human mind is operating the tool and their motivations.

Knife crime has become a problem in youth gangs in some parts of our cities, mostly London and mostly drug driven. It's a very worrying issue. Even so, there were 'only' 263 knife murders in the UK between July 2017 and July 2018. I won't embarrass you with the US figure.

I don't think you understand what my objection is. Tasers are absolutely fantastic when they work. Problem is they work about 50% of the time, especially during colder months where people naturally wear bulkier clothing. And fighting a person armed with a knife with only a baton looks cool in the movies, but in reality you're gonna get carved up before being able to actually disarm him.

If the cops can't reliably defend themselves how can they be expected to defend anyone else?

Our police are armed when they need to be.

Short of your police being clairvoyant soothsayers how would anybody know when that time is?

Increasingly so given the terrorism threat. It's something that even right wing leaning people here are concerned about. But there is absolutely no demand from anywhere to arm the bobby on the beat - not even the police. We know it would lead to even more needless death. We need to solve the underlying problem, not go around shooting people.

Yes, the underlying problem is why and how some people get to a place where they desire to hurt others. But trying conduct a forensic auditing of his mental state amid his savage attack doesn't help him, doesn't help the innocent people in his path and doesn't help the police from reliably stopping him.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2019 4:49 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2019 12:19 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 296 of 322 (863378)
09-25-2019 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Percy
09-25-2019 10:45 AM


Not watching a five minute video. Please describe what happened and provide a link to an article.

You won't watch a five minute video but you will read a ten minute article. Got it.

You also seem to be under the impression that news articles necessarily give credibility to something when its susceptible to a spin. The news articles reported that another pig brutally executed a black man for the crime of blackness... problem is the video, which I have provided but which you can't be bothered to view because it is just soooo laborious, wipes its ass with the articles false narrative. So if I provided you with an article, you would be under a false impression.

There of course exist situations where being armed increases safety, but they are overwhelmed by the situations where it increases danger. It's statistical. You can even look at it simplistically as just a trivial proportion. The greater the proportion of people armed, the greater the number of firearm injuries and deaths.

You could find any arbitrary statistic to justify just about anything. We'll take it a step further based upon statistical analysis: the more people condensed into a single area, the greater the chance of violence. Conclusion: all major cities must be forced to dissolve for the sake of curbing violence.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Percy, posted 09-25-2019 10:45 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7085
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 297 of 322 (863380)
09-25-2019 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 12:08 PM


Hydro writes:

I don't think you understand what my objection is.

I know what your objection is, you want to keep your guns. All this stuff about police being armed or not, and knife crime in the UK is just chaff.

Tasers are absolutely fantastic when they work. Problem is they work about 50% of the time, especially during colder months where people naturally wear bulkier clothing.

Most of our police do not even have tasers. Weird huh?

And fighting a person armed with a knife with only a baton looks cool in the movies, but in reality you're gonna get carved up before being able to actually disarm him.

It's a very rare event where unarmed police need to confront a person with a knife. In our society we somehow deal with the issue.

If the cops can't reliably defend themselves how can they be expected to defend anyone else?

The cops obviously do reliably defend themselves and the public and have done for centuries. But of course, they don't get routinely shot at here because the general public isn't armed to the teeth so they don't need to shoot back.

Short of your police being clairvoyant soothsayers how would anybody know when that time is?

You realise you're talking about a system that by-and-large works very well and we're all ok with? There ARE other methods than lethal force.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 12:08 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 1:15 PM Tangle has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 298 of 322 (863387)
09-25-2019 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Tangle
09-25-2019 12:19 PM


I know what your objection is, you want to keep your guns. All this stuff about police being armed or not, and knife crime in the UK is just chaff.

Police should be armed; here are the reasons why. I made my argument, you made yours. Neither of us found the other compelling. If we can agree to disagree then at least we're in agreement about something. Progress.

Most of our police do not even have tasers. Weird huh?

A little bit. But then Americans don't drink very much tea which may be bizarre to you.

It's a very rare event where unarmed police need to confront a person with a knife. In our society we somehow deal with the issue.

Its rare that an armed police officer has to confront a person with a gun, but I'd rather be ready that unready.

The cops obviously do reliably defend themselves and the public and have done for centuries. But of course, they don't get routinely shot at here because the general public isn't armed to the teeth so they don't need to shoot back.

I'm just pointing out that even in the absence of guns, deadly force still exists. A knife can kill you just as easily as a gun can.

You realise you're talking about a system that by-and-large works very well and we're all ok with? There ARE other methods than lethal force.

Yes, and I'm glad those options are available to handle a multitude of different scenarios.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2019 12:19 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2019 2:13 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7085
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 299 of 322 (863389)
09-25-2019 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 1:15 PM


Hydro writes:

I'm just pointing out that even in the absence of guns, deadly force still exists.

Yeh, I think we know that.

A knife can kill you just as easily as a gun can.

Oh I'm pretty sure a gun does it a bit better don't you? Do you hunt with a knife? Should we arm the British Bobby with knives?

Yes, and I'm glad those options are available to handle a multitude of different scenarios.

They are available and they work.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 1:15 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 2:51 PM Tangle has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 300 of 322 (863392)
09-25-2019 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Tangle
09-25-2019 2:13 PM


Oh I'm pretty sure a gun does it a bit better don't you?

The advantage of the gun over the knife is that allows for distance. But in terms of lethality, the knife is every bit as dangerous.

Do you hunt with a knife? Should we arm the British Bobby with knives?

Better than nothing at all, I suppose.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2019 2:13 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2019 4:45 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
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