Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 83 (8942 total)
30 online now:
AZPaul3, JonF, PaulK, Percy (Admin), RAZD, ringo, Thugpreacha (AdminPhat) (7 members, 23 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: John Sullivan
Upcoming Birthdays: Anish
Post Volume: Total: 863,379 Year: 18,415/19,786 Month: 835/1,705 Week: 87/518 Day: 13/74 Hour: 2/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Police Shootings
ringo
Member
Posts: 17395
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 301 of 322 (863397)
09-25-2019 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 2:52 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:

Pacifism isn't the abrogation of violence... pacifism IS violence.


What a stupid thing to say.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 2:52 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18868
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 302 of 322 (863431)
09-25-2019 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 12:17 PM


Hyroglyphx writes:

Not watching a five minute video. Please describe what happened and provide a link to an article.

You won't watch a five minute video but you will read a ten minute article. Got it.

Most people read far faster than the spoken word. If there's something visually important in the video then please cue it up at the right time (instructions here). The Forum Guidelines mentions bare links, and a video is just a bare link with a picture:

  1. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.

It would be really nice if you could make your argument in your own words and provide links/videos as supporting references.

You also seem to be under the impression that news articles necessarily give credibility to something when its susceptible to a spin.

Uh, no, and I am not the topic. We're not here to discuss me. It's just that I, like most people, read far faster than I watch.

The news articles reported that another pig brutally executed a black man for the crime of blackness... problem is the video, which I have provided but which you can't be bothered to view because it is just soooo laborious, wipes its ass with the articles false narrative. So if I provided you with an article, you would be under a false impression.

This still doesn't describe what happened.

There of course exist situations where being armed increases safety, but they are overwhelmed by the situations where it increases danger. It's statistical. You can even look at it simplistically as just a trivial proportion. The greater the proportion of people armed, the greater the number of firearm injuries and deaths.

You could find any arbitrary statistic to justify just about anything.

Yet again one of your posts reflects a deep misunderstanding and mistrust of statistics. Any statistic is as good as the underlying data and the analytical approach. This is the basis upon which a statistic must be attacked and defended.

We'll take it a step further based upon statistical analysis: the more people condensed into a single area, the greater the chance of violence. Conclusion: all major cities must be forced to dissolve for the sake of curbing violence.

This is silly, but interestingly, cities are safer overall than rural areas. This is from In Town vs. Country, It Turns Out That Cities Are the Safest Places to Live:

quote:
According to a new study (PDF) published today in the Annals of Emergency Medicine, large cities in the U.S. are significantly safer than rural areas. The risk of injury death — which counts both violent crime and accidents — is more than 20% higher in the countryside than it is in large urban areas. “Perceptions have long existed that cities were innately more dangerous than areas outside of cities, but our study shows this is not the case,” said the lead author, Dr. Sage R. Myers of the University of Pennsylvania and the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia in a statement. Far from being violent death traps, a large city might just about be the safest place to live in the U.S.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 12:17 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Theodoric, posted 09-26-2019 3:21 AM Percy has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6654
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 303 of 322 (863457)
09-26-2019 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Percy
09-25-2019 6:58 PM


This is silly, but interestingly, cities are safer overall than rural areas.

Wingnuts and ammosexuals seem to not be able to understand the idea of geographic distribution of people. More violence geographically does not mean more violence per capita.

Edited by Theodoric, : Forgot not


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Percy, posted 09-25-2019 6:58 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7085
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 304 of 322 (863460)
09-26-2019 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 2:51 PM


Hyro writes:

The advantage of the gun over the knife is that allows for distance.

That's one advantage. But you know that there are many many more - not least the ability to kill a lot of people at a distance very quickly.

Which is why no armed force of any description uses knives instead of guns.

But in terms of lethality, the knife is every bit as dangerous.

Right, so you'd be the idiot bringing a knife to a gun fight?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 2:51 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18868
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 305 of 322 (863513)
09-26-2019 8:25 PM


It's Time We Knew Why US Park Police Murdered Bijan Ghaisar
It's a strange story, one I see mentioned in the news every few months. On November 17, 2017, Bijan Ghaisar, a 25 year old accountant, stopped his car suddenly and was rear ended. No one was hurt and there was only slight damage to the vehicles, but two US Park Police officers began tailing Ghaisar's vehicle. They stopped him once, but he pulled away and continued down the road. They pursued and stopped him again, but again he pulled away and continued down the road. They pursued and stopped him a third time, leaving their vehicle with guns drawn. As Gaisar pulls away again they fire into the vehicle, eventually nine times. Gaisar is killed. He was unarmed and was driving away from the officers, not toward them.

The investigation was turned over to the FBI almost immediately, but after nearly two years nothing has been made public. The two Park Police officers remain on paid administrative leave. All attempts to learn about the FBI investigation's progress have been rebuffed, even by congressmen. It remains a mystery.

My point in mentioning this odd case is that US Park Police should not have guns.

Recent article: Why did Park Police officers kill Bijan Ghaisar?

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-28-2019 12:53 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 309 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-28-2019 1:17 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1558
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 306 of 322 (863616)
09-28-2019 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Percy
09-26-2019 8:25 PM


Re: It's Time We Knew Why US Park Police Murdered Bijan Ghaisar
Why not hold police to a high standard?

They make a mistake, then they should pay.

They choke somebody out, then they should have no excuses.

They shoot somebody who is unarmed, then they should pay.

Too many legislated loopholes allow them to get off.

(just like citizens get to legally shoot just because they are loosing a fistfight, like the 29-year-old Zimmerman in Florida who was loosing to a 17 year-old Martin)

Why does this have to be a gun issue?

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Percy, posted 09-26-2019 8:25 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18868
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 307 of 322 (863622)
09-28-2019 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Percy
09-24-2019 9:54 AM


Re: Another Example Why Police Shouldn't Have Guns
The trial of Amber Guyger, who shot dead her upstairs neighbor when she mistakenly entered the apartment one floor up from hers, continues, and I can't help commenting on this quote of Guyger on the stand: "I never wanted to take an innocent person’s life, and I’m so sorry."

Amber, we believe that you're sincerely regretful, but there's an easy way to prevent such tragedies: don't issue police guns. It isn't your fault that you murdered Botham Jean. Statistically across a population as large as the national police force mistakes will happen, and this one happened to you and the tragically unfortunate Botham Jean.

The true fault lies at the feet of the culture of guns that believes an instrument of violence and death is itself somehow the solution to violence and death. I doubt you became a police officer because you wanted to carry a gun. It's likely because you wanted to do good, to serve and protect. You didn't need a gun to do that, but there are probably few (none?) police forces in the country that don't issue their officers guns. When you became a police officer you had no choice but to carry the gun they issued you. It was part of the uniform.

Amber (and I doubt you agree with me, despite your predicament, but you're brainwashed, not just by the gun culture but by the police establishments own gun subculture), you should not be the defendant in this case. It is the gun culture that should be charged, if such a thing were possible.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Percy, posted 09-24-2019 9:54 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-28-2019 1:12 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 311 by Percy, posted 10-01-2019 2:57 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 308 of 322 (863645)
09-28-2019 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Percy
09-28-2019 8:35 AM


Re: Another Example Why Police Shouldn't Have Guns
The trial of Amber Guyger, who shot dead her upstairs neighbor when she mistakenly entered the apartment one floor up from hers, continues, and I can't help commenting on this quote of Guyger on the stand: "I never wanted to take an innocent person’s life, and I’m so sorry."

I would like to remind you that the DA's office went from Manslaughter to Murder. Proving manslaughter is much easier because its only elemental difference is recklessness. They changed the charge to murder... meaning they have sufficient evidence to believe that the defendant knowingly and/or intentionally killed Botham. They also know that once they go down that route and can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt that the entire criminal case is in jeopardy. They must know far more than we do to have the confidence in proceeding with the charge of murder while knowing that it could potentially affect the entirety of the case.

Amber, we believe that you're sincerely regretful, but there's an easy way to prevent such tragedies: don't issue police guns. It isn't your fault that you murdered Botham Jean.

Its not her fault??? Actually, yes, it is her fault... and even she admits that its her fault that she recklessly killed him. What she hasn't admitted is that she knowingly or intentionally killed him. In either case, yes, it is her fault.

you should not be the defendant in this case. It is the gun culture that should be charged, if such a thing were possible.

Very touching how you erase blame on the individual and lay it at the feet of the gun and culture itself. I guess we should probably let her go then... I mean, she did say she was sorry and, as you pointed out, this is actually the fault of American gun culture.

She should be the defendant in this case, regardless of how you feel about guns and regardless of how you feel about policing in America. The rungs of culpability are as follows:

1. Guyger, with malice aforethought and premeditation, did knowingly, intentionally, and savagely murder Botham Jean.

2. Guyger, in the heat of passion, did knowingly and intentionally murder Botham... for which she may or may not feel remorse after the fact, but is ultimately moot.

3. Guyger did recklessly discharge her firearm which caused the death of an innocent man in his residence.

In any one of those instances (and it is 100% going to be one of the three) Amber Guyger is at fault. Not gun culture. Not American policing. Amber Guyger.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : typo


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Percy, posted 09-28-2019 8:35 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-28-2019 5:28 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5826
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 309 of 322 (863646)
09-28-2019 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Percy
09-26-2019 8:25 PM


Re: It's Time We Knew Why US Park Police Murdered Bijan Ghaisar
My point in mentioning this odd case is that US Park Police should not have guns.

You don't think any police should have guns and continue to make that the sole feature in any of your rants, so when do any details more than that mean anything? The details are always overshadowed by the gun... Nice work.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Percy, posted 09-26-2019 8:25 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by xongsmith, posted 10-01-2019 4:31 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1558
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 310 of 322 (863683)
09-28-2019 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Hyroglyphx
09-28-2019 1:12 PM


Re: Another Example Why Police Shouldn't Have Guns
quote:
The rungs of culpability are as follows:

1. Guyger, with malice aforethought and premeditation, did knowingly, intentionally, and savagely murder Botham Jean.

2. Guyger, in the heat of passion, did knowingly and intentionally murder Botham... for which she may or may not feel remorse after the fact, but is ultimately moot.

3. Guyger did recklessly discharge her firearm which caused the death of an innocent man in his residence.


Her excuse will (as always in these cases) be that she "felt her health or life was threatened".

Just like George Zimmerman of Florida did(at least he was actually being beaten up, unlike the home-invader Guyger, who simply barged into an innocent man's house).

But Zimmerman went looking for trouble, and the kid Martin noticed Zimmerman was coming after him. Martin had the right to use his fists, if I am the one writing the letter of the law. Fight with your fists, not guns (not knives, not mace).

Hypotheticals:

If Martin hypothetically beat an unarmed Zimmerman to death, then he should be held to account (though it was in self defense, so perhaps his hypothetical sentence would be a bit less than the typical murder)

END OF HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO

My whole point is that one should fight with fists. Not guns. But bringing death should be seen as extremely serious. This "I felt threatened" is just way to big of a loophole. If somebody is so much of a coward, then perhaps they should file for disability (avoiding the need for a job) and never leave their house. They should certainly not be a neighborhood watchman who tails young men who walk through a street.

Guyger felt "threatened". People like her are the worst and most dangerous alive (aside from the lawmakers in this country). I feel threatened when there is a possibility that human-slime like her might just be legally (!) allowed to do what she did.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-28-2019 1:12 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18868
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 311 of 322 (863828)
10-01-2019 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Percy
09-28-2019 8:35 AM


Re: Another Example Why Police Shouldn't Have Guns
Amber Guyger has been found guilty of murder in the death of Botham Jean, whom she shot and killed while in his own apartment after mistaking it for her own. Speaking outside the court, Attorney Lee Merritt representing the Jean family in the civil case said, "It's a signal that the tide is going to change here. Police officers are going to be held accountable for their actions, and we believe this is going to change the policing culture all over the world."

He's wrong, of course. The future will be much like today where police are largely not held accountable for their civilian homicides. Their actions will continue to be given wide latitude.

This is as it should be. Our police officers are not the elite of the elite in the way of Navy Seals and Army Rangers. Police departments are just a cross section of the general population. Police recruits have no special qualities of judgment or high levels of competence, and no amount of training will change that. Police training is not like Navy Seal or Army Ranger training where only the best of the best are left at the end, which is possible since their ranks are so few. Police ranks are huge, well over a million nationwide, so police training can do no more than wean out the worst of the worst.

Police are people just like us who have been handed a great amount of responsibility and a gun. They make mistakes at the same rate we do, and no amount of training will change that.

The result is that each year a fairly predictable number of police officers will make horrific mistakes that result in death not because they are vicious or poorly trained but simply because they're just people who make mistakes who happen to have a gun. Guyger and Jean are just two halves of the same statistic.

Story: Amber Guyger found guilty of murder at trial in fatal shooting of neighbor Botham Jean

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Percy, posted 09-28-2019 8:35 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Taq, posted 10-01-2019 3:08 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 8081
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 312 of 322 (863829)
10-01-2019 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by Percy
10-01-2019 2:57 PM


Re: Another Example Why Police Shouldn't Have Guns
Percy writes:

Amber Guyger has been found guilty of murder in the death of Botham Jean, whom she shot and killed while in his own apartment after mistaking it for her own. Speaking outside the court, Attorney Lee Merritt representing the Jean family in the civil case said, "It's a signal that the tide is going to change here. Police officers are going to be held accountable for their actions, and we believe this is going to change the policing culture all over the world."
He's wrong, of course.

Wow, you ordered a category 5 hurricane to rain on that parade.

I do share your cynicism, but maybe we should hope for the best while preparing for the worst. Just maybe.

Police are people just like us who have been handed a great amount of responsibility and a gun. They make mistakes at the same rate we do, and no amount of training will change that.

Completely agree. Training should be focused on preventing as much harm as possible to innocent civilians instead of encouraging police to shoot first and ask questions later. This will lessen the damage caused by fallible human judgments.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Percy, posted 10-01-2019 2:57 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1909
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 313 of 322 (863841)
10-01-2019 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Hyroglyphx
09-28-2019 1:17 PM


Re: It's Time We Knew Why US Park Police Murdered Bijan Ghaisar
Hyro writes back to Percy:

You don't think any police should have guns and continue to make that the sole feature in any of your rants...

This is not True.


"I'd rather be an American than a Trump Supporter."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-28-2019 1:17 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1909
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 314 of 322 (863842)
10-01-2019 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Percy
06-21-2018 10:00 AM


Re: Police Murder 17-Year-Old
Here is a quote from Percy in message 65 of this thread in 6/21/2018:

Take away most officer's guns, no murder. Only officers in special units should have guns.

See? Special units are armed.


"I'd rather be an American than a Trump Supporter."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Percy, posted 06-21-2018 10:00 AM Percy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Taq, posted 10-01-2019 6:49 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 8081
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 315 of 322 (863853)
10-01-2019 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by xongsmith
10-01-2019 4:38 PM


Re: Police Murder 17-Year-Old
xongsmith writes:

See? Special units are armed.

I'm leaning that way myself. Why does a cop need a gun for issuing a speeding ticket. If you walk up and the driver pulls a gun then turn around, run to your car, lock the door. Perhaps the police officer could have a gun in the car that can be used when someone keeps shooting at them when they are in the car. If the suspect speeds away, call it in and get the special units to chase them down.

Right now, an officer will have his hand on the gun, ready to draw and fire at the slightest provocation, just for a speeding ticket. That makes no sense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by xongsmith, posted 10-01-2019 4:38 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-03-2019 9:18 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019