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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Percy
Member
Posts: 19228
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 391 of 475 (868016)
12-06-2019 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 378 by Tangle
12-05-2019 3:32 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Tangle writes:

Percy writes:

I of course don't buy the argument that every police use of their weapon must be a kill shot.


That is not the situation in the UK.

Firearms are only allowed at all in situations where an imminent lethal threat is realistically evident. When a tactical firearms team is called in their policy is to shoot to remove the threat. That usually means shooting into the chest area because that is the biggest target but that, of course, carries a risk of being fatal.

How is that any different from what I just said?

quote:
To prevent an immediate threat to life by shooting to stop the subject from carrying out their intended or threatened course of action. In most circumstances this is achieved by aiming to strike the central body mass (i.e. the torso).

Again, pretty much what I just said.

The last 2/3 of your post was a cut-n-paste, but you provided no link or attribution. It appears to have come from Operation Kratos - Wikipedia.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2019 3:32 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2019 4:17 PM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19228
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 392 of 475 (868017)
12-06-2019 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by Tangle
12-05-2019 12:54 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Tangle writes:

Percy writes:

This appears to argue that committing an attack makes you fair game for execution instead of just arrest. I'm afraid I could never agree to that.

Would it make a difference if we changed your wording to:

This appears to argue that committing an attack makes you fair game for being shot dead instead of just arrested.

Because of course it does.

Calling it an 'execution' - and I believe earlier you've called it 'murder' - burdens it with delayed, deliberate, unnecessary and inevitable sanction.

There was no intended allusion to the end result of a legal process. I meant execution in the sense of a mob hit or something like this, it's positioned to the exact right spot:

The police are following policy, making split second decisions based on that policy and training are are subject to the same criminal law against murder that I am. Force of any kind must be reasonable according to the circumstances. Anybody acting outside that law will be prosecuted.

At least in this country, police are almost never prosecuted when they kill someone. That fact is why this thread exists.

The terrorist also knows what to expect if he goes around knifing people in the street and wearing a suicide vest - he WILL be shot dead. I do not support the death penalty but I do support shooting people dead that are attempting to kill others.

The suspect was not attempting to kill anyone prior to the moment he was killed but was being held down by passersby. He was killed immediately after the last passersby was pulled off.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2019 12:54 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by ringo, posted 12-06-2019 12:17 PM Percy has responded
 Message 394 by Tangle, posted 12-06-2019 12:26 PM Percy has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17817
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 393 of 475 (868018)
12-06-2019 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by Percy
12-06-2019 12:12 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

At least in this country, police are almost never prosecuted when they kill someone. That fact is why this thread exists.


I think you're weakening your case by nitpicking about an example where the shooting was clearly justifiable.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Percy, posted 12-06-2019 12:12 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by Percy, posted 12-07-2019 9:28 AM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7282
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 394 of 475 (868019)
12-06-2019 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by Percy
12-06-2019 12:12 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

The suspect was not attempting to kill anyone prior to the moment he was killed but was being held down by passersby. He was killed immediately after the last passersby was pulled off.

And then shot - presumably in the head - because he had a fake suicide vest on and had already proved his intentions. That's policy and training and I can't see what other policy could work in anything more than an armchair tactician's mind with all the time in the world to replay videos of the event from all angles.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Percy, posted 12-06-2019 12:12 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by Percy, posted 12-07-2019 9:50 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15805
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 395 of 475 (868023)
12-06-2019 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by Percy
12-06-2019 11:51 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
quote:
I think I am only guilty of arguing for my position, as are you.

I think that it should be self-evident that a trained professional would not be taking silly risks. To argue against that with. I thing but sarcasm seems pointless. Yet this goes on and on.

quote:
Uh, because you're not?

Since I am obviously correct that isn’t it.

quote:
And you know this how?

Because a head shot at close range with an accurate weapon is very unlikely to hit the vest.

quote:
I'll interpret this confused explanation as an indication that you'd like to drop this point.

I’ll interpret that as a desire to be let off the hook for the obvious misrepresentation. Especially as there is nothing confused in my explanation at all.

quote:
That's always the police defense: they felt threatened, and the threat justified use of deadly force. Courts and the public are very gradually diminishing their acceptance of this defense.

Since the nature of the attack and the apparent presence of a suicide vest give good reason to perceive a threat - extending to the members of the public the police were extracting from the situation - I think that defence holds up in this case.

quote:
It is neither newly-invented nor a misrepresentation. I described this before, though not in a post to you. Read the thread

I have and I see no such message,

quote:
If you had "already explained" this then the words "detonator" and "hand" would have appeared in one of your earlier posts, but they don't.

It is a fact that English has many ways of expressing things. For instance the phrase “reaching for the detonator” implies that is was not in his hand.

quote:
How small can they make switches these days?

You missed the reference to the wiring - also he would have had to be holding it closed even if the switch was too small to be visible.

quote:
You raised the fact that "he would have had to arm it first" as an objection to the dead man's switch possibility, so I pointed out that one only has to press the switch to activate the bomb.

I raised it to point out that it would make the dead man switch effectively the same as a manual detonator.

quote:
No you didn't.

The board software makes it easy to advance forward and backward in a subthread, and it does have a search facility. Prior posts are not a black box.


Message 371

But he clearly planned to die. Taking the chance that he changed his mind doesn’t seem to be a good risk.

quote:
We were talking about your certainty of the mind of the suspect. The question wasn't about the reality of the unlikelihood of him escaping. It was about your certainty about what the suspect believed was possible, because what he believed possible would govern his decision making about what actions to take.

I think we can be certain that he was aware that he was in the ground, surrounded by armed police.

quote:
When there are many possible ways something could play out, i.e., many possibilities, of course they're not all consistent with one another. We mustn't become stuck upon one scenario based upon what actually played out but must keep in mind the variety of ways things could have played out.

Disingenuous. The issue is the evaluation of the vest as a threat, given the information the officers had. That should remain constant unless you can give a good reason why it might not. It should not change drastically depending on the argument you wish to make.

I’ll also point out that merely coming up with unlikely possibilities that happen to favour your view does nothing to advance the discussion.

quote:
The YouTube video is a sequence of shorter videos of the event concatenated together. I can't know what you're looking at unless you tell me the point in time in the video that you're looking at. Here's the video again, it would be appreciated if you could tell me the time in the video I should look at

20-23 seconds in. Note that Tangle confirmed in Message 378 that the Met’s firearms doctrine calls for a headshot.

quote:
How does it undermine the point?

Underline, not undermine,

quote:
This repeats the same error. If you don't know the mind of the suspect, you also can't know if he changed it

I didn’t claim to know. Whether he did or not is irrelevant because we can’t know - and nor could the armed police on the scene.

quote:
I could agree that they seem less likely, not "far less likely," but even "far less likely" is not the same as "can be ignored" given the catastrophic consequences of being wrong.

I’ve seen no reason to think that m6 evaluation is wrong.
But even if I am - given the catastrophic consequences of being wrong - either way - it would be insane to go with the choice most likely to be wrong. Yet here you are...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Percy, posted 12-06-2019 11:51 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by Percy, posted 12-07-2019 11:59 AM PaulK has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5892
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 396 of 475 (868049)
12-06-2019 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by Percy
12-04-2019 8:09 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
I said I was done with you in Message 339, and as long as you continue with your "argumentation through misrepresentation" I'm still done with you.

Are you done with me on this thread or done with me period? I can always leave the forum if my presence is not welcome. Just say the word and I'll fall on my sword.

Before that happens, perhaps you can tell me what I'm saying that's so different from what everyone else is. If I'm arguing through misrepresentation then isn't everyone else? Thus far their arguments seem very rational and reasonable.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by Percy, posted 12-04-2019 8:09 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Percy, posted 12-09-2019 9:17 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5892
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 397 of 475 (868056)
12-06-2019 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Percy
12-04-2019 8:06 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
They should have ordered the suspect to remain on the ground as the passersby were removed from on top of him. When the last passerby was pulled away then any attempt by the suspect to rise would justify shooting him.

How would his standing or lying alter whether or not a bomb would detonate?

In the leg. I of course don't buy the argument that every police use of their weapon must be a kill shot.

I don't know how it works in the UK, but I imagine that the rationale is similar if not exact to US methodology -- that the only reason to ever fire your weapon is only if there is a deadly force situation. So if you shot with the intent to maim where there is no justifiable reason to assume a deadly force situation, you're committing a crime. That is what less lethal options are available for.

In any event, based upon the way these officers were moving and shot placement they looked very well trained -- probably have cross-trained with the SAS, which tells me they have practiced similar scenario's hundreds of times.

As I've said earlier, had the police done nothing substantial and it ended up being a real vest packed with explosives, many more people surely would have been killed. And then the police are placed in a situation where they had the ability to mitigate lives lost and failed to respond appropriately.

From a purely utilitarian perspective, most would agree that the lesser of evils was acted upon that day.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Percy, posted 12-04-2019 8:06 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by Percy, posted 12-09-2019 10:48 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 420 by caffeine, posted 12-10-2019 3:01 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15805
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 398 of 475 (868063)
12-06-2019 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Percy
12-06-2019 11:58 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
I note that you avoid quoting the section of Tangle’s post that is most relevant to this case.

In extreme situations, the policy recommends that covert police officers fire on suspected suicide attackers without warning, aiming multiple shots at the brain stem to minimise the risk of detonation of a bomb.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Percy, posted 12-06-2019 11:58 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by Percy, posted 12-09-2019 11:24 AM PaulK has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19228
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 399 of 475 (868079)
12-06-2019 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by PaulK
12-05-2019 1:38 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
PaulK writes:

If he had a detonator in his hand and if the police officer standing right over it couldn’t tell how he was holding it you might have a point.

If you knew the suspect's hands were visible while passersby were atop him then you might have a point.

But that was not in the argument and it looks like just another of your unlikely “possibilities”.

I can tell you think an argument was made where the point about a detonator was necessary but missing, but without more information I can't tell what argument you're referring to.

Since he was attacking with two knives, however, it’s far more likely that he wasn’t holding a detonator.

Sure, if that were the whole story, but 2019 London Bridge stabbing - Wikipedia says the knives were taped to his wrists. Was that done in a way that left his hands free? We don't know at this time.

quote:
Where in the video?

The first twenty seconds. It’s clear that there were multiple people piled on top of him and obstructing the view.

You said, "The suicide vest wasn’t noticed until they were pulling people off him." Where in the video do you think you're able to tell that they noticed a suicide vest? It's not in the first 20 seconds, and you say yourself that the people piled on top obscured the view.

The video also doesn't show any shots being fired, and if you start watching at time 30 seconds you'll see a video taken from a bus that shows the policemen at some distance from the suspect, who, if you watch carefully, is still moving. Some part of him bobs up above the divider fencing just as the camera is panning away.

I think the initial reports are, in a "fog of war" kind of way, probably inaccurate about a number of things, but that people are taking those initial reports as gospel, and are seeing things in the videos that aren't there.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by PaulK, posted 12-05-2019 1:38 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2019 2:45 AM Percy has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15805
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 400 of 475 (868086)
12-07-2019 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 399 by Percy
12-06-2019 9:13 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
quote:
If you knew the suspect's hands were visible while passersby were atop him then you might have a point.

No. That’s just nuts. If they can’t see his hands they can’t confuse a deadman switch in his hand with a manual detonator in his hand.

quote:
I can tell you think an argument was made where the point about a detonator was necessary but missing, but without more information I can't tell what argument you're referring to.

No, we’re talking about my argument that a manual detonator was more likely than a deadman switch because the belt hadn’t detonated.

quote:
Sure, if that were the whole story, but 2019 London Bridge stabbing - Wikipedia says the knives were taped to his wrists. Was that done in a way that left his hands free? We don't know at this time.

It would be pretty hard to use a knife while clenching a switch in his hand.

quote:
You said, "The suicide vest wasn’t noticed until they were pulling people off him." Where in the video do you think you're able to tell that they noticed a suicide vest? It's not in the first 20 seconds, and you say yourself that the people piled on top obscured the view.

And I supported my point by indicating that there were people in the way so that they couldn’t see the belt. That is visible in the video, just as I said. I don’t think you can tell exactly when they notice and never claimed that it could be seen.

quote:
The video also doesn't show any shots being fired, and if you start watching at time 30 seconds you'll see a video taken from a bus that shows the policemen at some distance from the suspect, who, if you watch carefully, is still moving. Some part of him bobs up above the divider fencing just as the camera is panning away.

I don’t see how that helps your point


This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by Percy, posted 12-06-2019 9:13 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by Percy, posted 12-09-2019 1:05 PM PaulK has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19228
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 401 of 475 (868096)
12-07-2019 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by DrJones*
12-06-2019 9:57 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
DrJones* writes:

What action did the man take that police responded to by shooting him dead?

he put on a suicide vest and went out in public.

I know there's enormous impetus for people to view this as a heroic outcome for the police, especially given the backstory (unknown to police at the time he was killed) of having served time in prison for terrorist activity and having already murdered two police, but you have to consider what dangers are presented to society in general in approving the killing of a defenseless man lying on the ground.

Yes, he put on a fake suicide vest. So does a guy trying to make it into comedy on open mic night by doing his terrorist routine. As he walks past the bars on the way to his gig an unrelated skirmish breaks out, someone screams "suicide vest," he's attacked and attempts to defend himself, he's lying on the ground and passersby are being pulled off him while policemen point their guns, and the next thing you know he's dead.

And the worst part of it is that likely no policemen would be charged.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by DrJones*, posted 12-06-2019 9:57 AM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by DrJones*, posted 12-07-2019 1:42 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19228
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 402 of 475 (868097)
12-07-2019 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 393 by ringo
12-06-2019 12:17 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
ringo writes:

Percy writes:

At least in this country, police are almost never prosecuted when they kill someone. That fact is why this thread exists.


I think you're weakening your case by nitpicking about an example where the shooting was clearly justifiable.

I think the pushback my views on this incident are receiving are a reflection of the degree to which the culture of guns has affected everyone. It is so pervasive that it has shifted the entire debate rightward. There's been no diminishment in the number of situations where the public believes police were justified in using lethal force.

I'm not playing a political game in this thread by carefully choosing cases that best support my views. I'm taking on all unjustifiable (in my view) police shootings without regard to how difficult making the case will be. This one is, on the surface, a tough one. It's the obvious execution style of the killing that makes this incident worth taking on.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by ringo, posted 12-06-2019 12:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 9:57 AM Percy has responded
 Message 405 by ringo, posted 12-07-2019 10:42 AM Percy has responded
 Message 407 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-07-2019 1:33 PM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19228
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 403 of 475 (868098)
12-07-2019 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by Tangle
12-06-2019 12:26 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Tangle writes:

Percy writes:

The suspect was not attempting to kill anyone prior to the moment he was killed but was being held down by passersby. He was killed immediately after the last passersby was pulled off.


And then shot - presumably in the head - ...

And yet not a single news report says where the suspect was shot. Just now was the fourth or fifth time I've tried to find this information. So sure, presumably in the head, I agree, but we can't forget that's not yet a fact.

...because he had a fake suicide vest on and had already proved his intentions.

Police somehow do often manage to arrest rather than kill violent offenders who "had already proved his intentions."

That's policy and training and I can't see what other policy could work...

Since the suicide vest was fake, a policy of not killing people when it's not necessary would have worked just fine. I know the police couldn't know the vest was fake, but it isn't clear they ever saw the vest before killing him. The policemen were already positioning themselves for a shot (this cannot be denied, since they did shoot him - twice) before the passersby were all removed.

This can be sold as being prepared to take a shot in case it becomes necessary because if the shots were fired when we think they were (immediately after the last passersby was removed from danger, but no video I've seen includes the actual shots, so this is difficult to confirm) then this argues that the police were preparing for a shot, not just remaining prepared.

...in anything more than an armchair tactician's mind with all the time in the world to replay videos of the event from all angles.

The policemen in the videos had a much better view than any of the videos. Did the policemen have body cameras? There's another fact we don't know.

Remarkably little additional information (more like none) is emerging. The relevant stories returned by a Google News search are all several days old.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Tangle, posted 12-06-2019 12:26 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7282
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 404 of 475 (868099)
12-07-2019 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by Percy
12-07-2019 9:28 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

This one is, on the surface, a tough one.

It really isn't.

It's the obvious execution style of the killing that makes this incident worth taking on.

Again, you're equating the police's action in this incident with taking someone to a field and shooting them in the back of the head. The guy was deliberately shot dead because he was a terrorist that had already killed two people and was attempting to kill more. The police were following a thought-through policy and their training for dealing with a suicide bomber.

If they acted outside the law, we'll hear about it. But I'm betting anything we won't.

And, btw, I'm speaking as someone anti-gun and anti-capital punishment.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Percy, posted 12-07-2019 9:28 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by Percy, posted 12-09-2019 2:18 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17817
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 405 of 475 (868101)
12-07-2019 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by Percy
12-07-2019 9:28 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

There's been no diminishment in the number of situations where the public believes police were justified in using lethal force.


To be clear, my stance is pretty simple: Where there is a clear and present danger, shoot to kill. A man with a suicide vest is a clear and present danger, period.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Percy, posted 12-07-2019 9:28 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by Percy, posted 12-10-2019 5:22 PM ringo has responded

  
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