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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Percy
Member
Posts: 19228
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 436 of 475 (868408)
12-11-2019 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 429 by DrJones*
12-11-2019 2:27 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
DrJones* writes:

For those police who have guns I'm in favor of including policies, procedures and training for their non-lethal use

there is no non-lethal use for guns in a police situation, if the situation has escalated to where you need to use a gun it should be to kill.

Yes, I think everyone knows that current policies, procedures and training are to only use guns lethally. That's why I proposed changing them.

edit a couple hours after the fact: also if you widen the criteria for acceptable use of a firearm you're going to get more use of a firearm with more deaths.

I would like to narrow the criteria but widen the options.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by DrJones*, posted 12-11-2019 2:27 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by DrJones*, posted 12-11-2019 9:14 PM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19228
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 437 of 475 (868409)
12-11-2019 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by Tangle
12-11-2019 2:50 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Tangle writes:

Percy writes:

Most of that is post facto information.


Armed police were called to a multiple stabbing and suspected terrorist attack. It is not post facto.

Really? I did seek information about this but didn't find anything like that, only things like this from London police dealing with 'incident' at London Bridge:

quote:
British police say they are responding to an incident unfolding in central London. London's Metropolitan Police said in a post on Twitter that they were in the "early stages" of the incident and called on public to follow instruction from officers at the scene.

And this from Stabbings Around London Bridge Kill 2 in ‘Terrorist Incident’:

quote:
“It has been declared a terrorist incident,” said Neil Basu, the assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. “I must stress, however, that we retain an open mind as to any motive.”

That's the kind of thing I was able to find. I wasn't able to find anything saying that police were being called to a suspected terrorist attack. If you have a reference I will of course concede the point.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2019 2:50 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2047
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 438 of 475 (868410)
12-11-2019 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by Percy
12-11-2019 8:07 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
I would like to narrow the criteria but widen the options.

so after all the railing against trigger happy police you actually want them to use their guns more? cause that's what you're going to get if you allow firearms to be used in a non-lethal manner.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Percy, posted 12-11-2019 8:07 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Percy, posted 12-12-2019 9:44 AM DrJones* has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7282
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 439 of 475 (868415)
12-12-2019 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 434 by Percy
12-11-2019 7:39 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

That wasn't my argument.

You didn't have an argument, you just declared them executions.

What I said is factual.

It's pure speculation. You have no idea what information the police were given. At the very least the police would know that someone is attacking people with a knife on London Bridge. It would be communicated at the very least as a suspected, life threatening terrorist incident.

I could agree that the armed police officers might easily have considered the possibility that they were responding to a terrorist incident, but it wasn't classified as such until after the fact.

Irrelevant

We both have access to all the same information. Neither of us was an eyewitness to any of it. You are no different from me.

But you're the one accusing the police of acting as executioners.

If you've been following this thread then you know that I periodically check for updates on the incidents I've posted about. At some point an official report will be issued and people can look back on what they've posted here and see how well their speculations panned out.

Well you'll see that the guy that attached the terrorist with a fire extinguisher says that he was wearing a suicide belt not a vest. He saw it inside the building and taunted him to detonate it. The terrorist said that he was waiting for the police.

He was the guy that sat on top of the terrorist. He shouted to the police that he had a suicide belt on and told them to shoot him. Which they did.

quote:
He said: "It seemed like ages before they shot him. It wasn't all gung-ho and trigger happy, they proper took their time, to the point where I did scream 'shoot him'."

I was prepared to die, says London Bridge 'hero'

You'll hear more if you can find the recording of the interview I just heard on the radio.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by Percy, posted 12-11-2019 7:39 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by vimesey, posted 12-12-2019 6:46 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 443 by Percy, posted 12-12-2019 9:40 AM Tangle has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1043
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 440 of 475 (868427)
12-12-2019 6:31 AM


Some useful testimony from London Bridge.
This may help give some useful data, in relation to discussions about the London Bridge shooting.

One of the people who fought the attacker, John Crilly, has given an interview about what happened. In relation to the actions of the police, this is the extract from the report:

In his first broadcast interview since the attack, Crilly, 48, told of the moment armed police confronted the knifeman on London Bridge.

He said: "It seemed like ages before they shot him. It wasn't all gung-ho and trigger happy, they proper took their time, to the point where I did scream 'shoot him'."

Now, we can clearly assess whether or not we choose to believe what Mr Crilly says, but in my view, his opinion and views as to the circumstances of the shooting are more valuable than our conjecture.

Link to the piece:

I was prepared to die, says London Bridge 'hero'


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2019 6:47 AM vimesey has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1043
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 441 of 475 (868428)
12-12-2019 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 439 by Tangle
12-12-2019 2:40 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Sorry Tangle - just saw your post (I got part way through mine and then finished it off before I re-read the topic). We've covered the same ground.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2019 2:40 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7282
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 442 of 475 (868429)
12-12-2019 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 440 by vimesey
12-12-2019 6:31 AM


Re: Some useful testimony from London Bridge.
Been there, done that ;-)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by vimesey, posted 12-12-2019 6:31 AM vimesey has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19228
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 443 of 475 (868436)
12-12-2019 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 439 by Tangle
12-12-2019 2:40 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Tangle writes:

Percy writes:

That wasn't my argument.


You didn't have an argument, you just declared them executions.

I realize I haven't convinced anyone, but is that what we've come to, just declaring arguments weren't made and don't exist?

What I said is factual.

It's pure speculation.

No, it's factual. Again, is that what we've come to, just ignoring facts by declaring them speculation?

You have no idea what information the police were given.

I didn't say I did. I was challenging your claim to know that the police were told a suspected terrorist attack was in progress. As I said in Message 437, I could find nothing that says this but that if you could provide a reference I would of course concede the point. Where's your reference, the source of your information, the thing that makes you so sure you're right?

At the very least the police would know that someone is attacking people with a knife on London Bridge.

Yes, of course, one of the articles I cited in Message 437 said pretty much that.

It would be communicated at the very least as a suspected, life threatening terrorist incident.

It could have been. Was it?

I could agree that the armed police officers might easily have considered the possibility that they were responding to a terrorist incident, but it wasn't classified as such until after the fact.

Irrelevant

Why are you responding this way? My response to your comment, carefully composed after reading it and thinking through my answer, is only irrelevant if your own comment was irrelevant.

We both have access to all the same information. Neither of us was an eyewitness to any of it. You are no different from me.

But you're the one accusing the police of acting as executioners.

Watch the videos. This video is positioned at exactly the point where police are firing at a defenseless suspect rolling around on the ground in pain (the police are shown firing from around a hundred feet away in another part of the video). How is that not an execution? Here's the video:

If you've been following this thread then you know that I periodically check for updates on the incidents I've posted about. At some point an official report will be issued and people can look back on what they've posted here and see how well their speculations panned out.

Well, you'll see that the guy that attacked the terrorist with a fire extinguisher says that he was wearing a suicide belt not a vest. He saw it inside the building and taunted him to detonate it. The terrorist said that he was waiting for the police.

He was the guy that sat on top of the terrorist. He shouted to the police that he had a suicide belt on and told them to shoot him. Which they did.

quote:
He said: "It seemed like ages before they shot him. It wasn't all gung-ho and trigger happy, they proper took their time, to the point where I did scream 'shoot him'."

I was prepared to die, says London Bridge 'hero'

Finally a reference. The timestamp on the article says it came out about eight hours ago, so this is new information.

But it's also inconsistent with police firing into the chest and abdomen. If Crilly really yelled at the police that the suspect had a suicide belt then either they didn't hear him or didn't believe him, because the police were not taking head shots. Killing a defenseless man rolling around in pain from previous gun shots is an execution. If you don't like that word then try murder or assassination.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2019 2:40 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2019 1:22 PM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19228
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 444 of 475 (868437)
12-12-2019 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 438 by DrJones*
12-11-2019 9:14 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
DrJones* writes:

I would like to narrow the criteria but widen the options.

so after all the railing against trigger happy police you actually want them to use their guns more? cause that's what you're going to get if you allow firearms to be used in a non-lethal manner.

First you say that widening the criteria will cause increased use of firearms by police, then when I respond that I actually want to narrow the criteria you say that that, too, will cause increased use of firearms by police. Make up your mind.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by DrJones*, posted 12-11-2019 9:14 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by DrJones*, posted 12-12-2019 10:01 AM Percy has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2047
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 445 of 475 (868438)
12-12-2019 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 444 by Percy
12-12-2019 9:44 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
then when I respond that I actually want to narrow the criteria you say that that, too, will cause increased use of firearms by police.

if you allow cops to shoot to wound you're going to get more shootings.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Percy, posted 12-12-2019 9:44 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by Percy, posted 12-12-2019 12:49 PM DrJones* has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17817
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 446 of 475 (868440)
12-12-2019 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 435 by Percy
12-11-2019 7:58 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

I was trying to remind you of a point I had made in earlier posts, that it is possible, since there's a news report that police shot the suspect in the chest and abdomen, that they did not think he was wearing a suicide vest.


Saying "it is possible" is speculating.

Percy writes:

I agree with you that a man with an actual for real suicide vest represents a grave danger, but whatever the suspect was wearing was not a vest (it could have been a belt) and was fake anyway.


But they didn't know it was a fake until after they subdued him.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by Percy, posted 12-11-2019 7:58 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by Percy, posted 12-12-2019 12:53 PM ringo has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19228
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 447 of 475 (868444)
12-12-2019 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by DrJones*
12-12-2019 10:01 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
DrJones* writes:

if you allow cops to shoot to wound you're going to get more shootings.

If you're right then it's a bad idea. Are you right? If so, why?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by DrJones*, posted 12-12-2019 10:01 AM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 449 by DrJones*, posted 12-12-2019 1:13 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19228
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 448 of 475 (868445)
12-12-2019 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by ringo
12-12-2019 10:42 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
ringo writes:

Saying "it is possible" is speculating.

You said there was no point in speculating about what they were thinking, but their thinking isn't what I was speculating about. I was speculating about what they knew.

But they didn't know it was a fake until after they subdued him.

If after subduing him they knew it was fake, why did they kill an unarmed man?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by ringo, posted 12-12-2019 10:42 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by ringo, posted 12-13-2019 10:51 AM Percy has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2047
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 449 of 475 (868447)
12-12-2019 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by Percy
12-12-2019 12:49 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Are you right? If so, why?

am i right? who knows? this is all hypothetical musing on our parts. It makes sense to me that if you give cops greater latitude in the use of their firearm they're going to use their firearms more.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Percy, posted 12-12-2019 12:49 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7282
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 450 of 475 (868449)
12-12-2019 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by Percy
12-12-2019 9:40 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

But it's also inconsistent with police firing into the chest and abdomen. If Crilly really yelled at the police that the suspect had a suicide belt then either they didn't hear him or didn't believe him, because the police were not taking head shots. Killing a defenseless man rolling around in pain from previous gun shots is an execution. If you don't like that word then try murder or assassination.

I give up, you've totally lost the plot.

To summarise. A terrorist wearing a suicide belt (that turned out to be fake) murdered two people and attempted to murder more. Civilians intervened armed police were called to the incident, they were told that the murderers was wearing a suicide belt, they saw the belt so they shot him dead.

Excellent result, well done.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by Percy, posted 12-12-2019 9:40 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 451 by Percy, posted 12-12-2019 9:06 PM Tangle has responded

  
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