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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Percy
Member
Posts: 19851
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 451 of 531 (868471)
12-12-2019 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by Tangle
12-12-2019 1:22 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Tangle writes:

I give up, you've totally lost the plot.

I'm just following the evidence where it leads. Much of what others have claimed is not supported by the evidence.

To summarise. A terrorist wearing a suicide belt (that turned out to be fake) murdered two people and attempted to murder more. Civilians intervened armed police were called to the incident, they were told that the murderers was wearing a suicide belt, they saw the belt so they shot him dead.

This is a good example of a claim unsupported by evidence. How is this consistent with shooting the suspect in the same area of the body as the suicide belt, especially with people and busses just a few lanes of bridge away from him should the belt explode?

And here again is the video positioned where the suspect is rolling around in pain on the ground while police continue to shoot him (also shows how close people were to him):

How do you justify this?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2019 1:22 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2019 2:36 AM Percy has responded
 Message 454 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-13-2019 10:40 AM Percy has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7797
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 452 of 531 (868483)
12-13-2019 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by Percy
12-12-2019 9:06 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

How do you justify this?


He was a terrorist that had murdered two people and was actively trying to murder still more.

There will be a detailed inquest, the police are covered by the same law of reasonable force as I am. Our criminal justice system is very robust, if it was an unlawful killing, we'll find out. Meanwhile the people that put their lives at risk by running towards harm to protect us deserve our support, not condemnation as executioners.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Percy, posted 12-12-2019 9:06 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by caffeine, posted 12-13-2019 9:45 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 460 by Percy, posted 12-14-2019 5:04 PM Tangle has responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1798
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 453 of 531 (868491)
12-13-2019 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 452 by Tangle
12-13-2019 2:36 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
There will be a detailed inquest, the police are covered by the same law of reasonable force as I am. Our criminal justice system is very robust, if it was an unlawful killing, we'll find out.

While on the whole I agree that Percy is clutching at straws in a stubborn refusal to accept that a police shooting can be justified, the above is childishly naive. How many British police have been successfully convicted for murdering someone? I'll give you a clue - it's less than one.

If you think every shooting in the history of the British police force was A-OK then I have a bridge you might be interested in.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2019 2:36 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2019 11:24 AM caffeine has responded
 Message 461 by Percy, posted 12-14-2019 5:22 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6048
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 454 of 531 (868498)
12-13-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by Percy
12-12-2019 9:06 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
How do you justify this?

I think that has been sufficiently answered at this point.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Percy, posted 12-12-2019 9:06 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by Percy, posted 12-14-2019 5:28 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18494
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 455 of 531 (868501)
12-13-2019 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 448 by Percy
12-12-2019 12:53 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

You said there was no point in speculating about what they were thinking, but their thinking isn't what I was speculating about. I was speculating about what they knew.


What they "knew" is the same as what they were thinking.

Percy writes:

If after subduing him they knew it was fake, why did they kill an unarmed man?


That's exactly the point. They didn't know the bomb was a fake until they subdued him. They subdued him by killing him.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by Percy, posted 12-12-2019 12:53 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by Percy, posted 12-14-2019 5:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6048
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 456 of 531 (868503)
12-13-2019 11:19 AM


[ Content removed to protect privacy. --Admin ]

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

Edited by Admin, : Remove content.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by Percy, posted 12-14-2019 8:51 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 468 by Percy, posted 12-15-2019 7:14 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7797
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 457 of 531 (868505)
12-13-2019 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by caffeine
12-13-2019 9:45 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Caffeine writes:

How many British police have been successfully convicted for murdering someone? I'll give you a clue - it's less than one.

If you think every shooting in the history of the British police force was A-OK then I have a bridge you might be interested in.

I have a lot of faith in our criminal justice system - it's man made so it has flaws but it's pretty much the best there is. If we ask our police to defend us from fundamentalist lunatics that want to kill as many people as they can, as quickly as they can, we have to live with them taking actions like this and support them when they do - until it's proven wrong.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by caffeine, posted 12-13-2019 9:45 AM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by caffeine, posted 12-13-2019 6:36 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 469 by Percy, posted 12-15-2019 7:49 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1798
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 458 of 531 (868541)
12-13-2019 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by Tangle
12-13-2019 11:24 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
I have a lot of faith in our criminal justice system - it's man made so it has flaws but it's pretty much the best there is. If we ask our police to defend us from fundamentalist lunatics that want to kill as many people as they can, as quickly as they can, we have to live with them taking actions like this and support them when they do - until it's proven wrong.

I have no qualms about police action in this case, I'm concerned about your belief that if they'd done something wrong that would somehow magically be revealed. Two things seem clear to me:

1. The police in Britain are essentially immune from prosecution for their actions.

This one is clear from results; but in fairness could be explained by the police in Britain never abusing their power. However other things are clear to me

2. The police in Britain regularly abuse their power. This is based on personal experience so I don't expect you to believe it, but it's intended more to explain my thinking.

Maybe I should try and make this argument better when sober.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2019 11:24 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2019 3:00 AM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7797
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 459 of 531 (868546)
12-14-2019 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by caffeine
12-13-2019 6:36 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
caffeine writes:

Two things seem clear to me:

1. The police in Britain are essentially immune from prosecution for their actions.

This one is clear from results; but in fairness could be explained by the police in Britain never abusing their power.

Quite obviously they are not - they are subject to the same laws as all of us and the prosecution and legal system are independent.

But of course there are instances of police abusing power and being downright criminal.

However other things are clear to me

2. The police in Britain regularly abuse their power. This is based on personal experience so I don't expect you to believe it, but it's intended more to explain my thinking.

I'm sure these things happen, but I don't believe that our criminal justice system is institutionally corrupt.

Maybe I should try and make this argument better when sober.

Maybe :-)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by caffeine, posted 12-13-2019 6:36 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19851
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 460 of 531 (868577)
12-14-2019 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by Tangle
12-13-2019 2:36 AM


Police Should Not Kill Unnecessarily
Tangle writes:

Percy writes:

How do you justify this?


He was a terrorist that had murdered two people and was actively trying to murder still more.

I don't understand why you continue repeating these untrue statements.

At the time the suspect was killed only one had died, and unless communication between the EMTs and the police on the bridge was very fast and very efficient, the police didn't know anyone had died at all.

And he wasn't actively trying to murder anyone at the time he was killed. He was disarmed and had a pile of passersby atop him.

And the police obviously didn't believe he was wearing a suicide belt or vest no matter what Crilly yelled because they fired into the suspect's chest and abdomen, precisely where a suicide belt or vest would be.

And this video that you keep ignoring shows the suspect rolling around on the ground in pain and no threat to anyone while police continue to shoot him. The video is, again, pre-positioned at the exact right spot:

There will be a detailed inquest, the police are covered by the same law of reasonable force as I am. Our criminal justice system is very robust, if it was an unlawful killing, we'll find out.

No one is arguing that it was an unlawful killing. Is that why you're repeating the same false arguments, because you're upset that I'm arguing the killing was unlawful? Well I'm not, and I don't know where you got that idea. My argument is that the killing was unnecessary, and that if it followed all relevant policies, procedures and training then those should be changed.

Yes, there will be an inquest. As I posted earlier, I periodically (like every few months) check the incidents I've posted about here to see if there have been any recent developments. When the results of the inquest come out I'll know about it.

Meanwhile the people that put their lives at risk by running towards harm to protect us deserve our support, not condemnation as executioners.

Ah, so that's the problem, you didn't like it being called an execution. You see use of that word as an attack on the police. Well, it is, in a way, but not on the police on the bridge. I'm sure they were only following protocols and orders. It's the police as an entire department or institution that I blame, because they're responsible for developing the current policies, procedures and training, and so they are responsible for the execution.

So there's no need to go all "keep throwing up the same debunked objections again and again while not addressing any arguments made or evidence presented" on me. I'm sorry you don't like the term execution, but keep things rational and factual, will you please?

The current message subtitle of "Unarmed Police Does Work" isn't right for what we're discussing now, so I've changed it.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2019 2:36 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 464 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2019 5:44 PM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19851
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 461 of 531 (868580)
12-14-2019 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by caffeine
12-13-2019 9:45 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
caffeine writes:

While on the whole I agree that Percy is clutching at straws in a stubborn refusal to accept that a police shooting can be justified, the above is childishly naive.

That police shootings are never justified is not my position.

My position is that many police shootings are unjustified, and that in this particular instance killing the suspect was unnecessary. Besides taking a human life unnecessarily, they also lost the primary information source.

How many British police have been successfully convicted for murdering someone? I'll give you a clue - it's less than one.

Really? Wow!

I'd guess that Britain has many, many fewer police killings than the US, so we can't compare numbers. We have around a thousand police killings per year, and I'd guess that less than 0.01% result in convictions. According to Wikipedia only 19 police officers have been convicted of murder (Category:American police officers convicted of murder - Wikipedia), but it doesn't say what time period that covers. By not mentioning a time period it implies that that's the total since the founding of the nation, but that number feels way too small for 230 years, so I'm not going to consider that number reliable.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by caffeine, posted 12-13-2019 9:45 AM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19851
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 462 of 531 (868581)
12-14-2019 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by Hyroglyphx
12-13-2019 10:40 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Hyroglyphx writes:

How do you justify this?

I think that has been sufficiently answered at this point.

Not actually. Avoidance like this or false answers have been the common response.

Here's the video again pre-positioned to where the suspect is rolling around in pain on the ground unarmed:

How do you justify killing this man?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-13-2019 10:40 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by DrJones*, posted 12-14-2019 6:53 PM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19851
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 463 of 531 (868582)
12-14-2019 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by ringo
12-13-2019 10:51 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
ringo writes:

Percy writes:

You said there was no point in speculating about what they were thinking, but their thinking isn't what I was speculating about. I was speculating about what they knew.


What they "knew" is the same as what they were thinking.

People can think many things they don't know. Knowing through observation or through informing oneself by other means is not the same as thinking, which can include opinions and imaginary things and speculations and so forth.

Percy writes:

If after subduing him they knew it was fake, why did they kill an unarmed man?


That's exactly the point. They didn't know the bomb was a fake until they subdued him. They subdued him by killing him.

If they didn't know the bomb was fake, why did they fire into his chest and abdomen where the bomb was? Either they knew the bomb was fake, or they didn't even know he was wearing a fake bomb.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by ringo, posted 12-13-2019 10:51 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by ringo, posted 12-15-2019 1:45 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7797
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 464 of 531 (868583)
12-14-2019 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by Percy
12-14-2019 5:04 PM


Re: Police Should Not Kill Unnecessarily
Percy writes:

I don't understand why you continue repeating these untrue statements.

And I don't understand why you can't see that this was a terrorist that had knifed two people - killing both of them - was wearing a (fake) suicide vest and attempting to kill as many more people as he could on the same bridge as one of his compatriots had killed 8 people only 2 years earlier.

At the time the suspect was killed only one had died, and unless communication between the EMTs and the police on the bridge was very fast and very efficient, the police didn't know anyone had died at all.

Oh, really? Only one had died so far, well that changes everything. Ffs. Even if they didn't know anyone had died, please show how this matters.

Sorry, I'm too angry to read the rest of your armchair crap. This was a terrorist attack in central London - like several before - that by the intervention of some heroic civilians and by very prompt actions by the police saved a lot of lives. I'll wait for the inquest to find the facts.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by Percy, posted 12-14-2019 5:04 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Percy, posted 12-15-2019 8:35 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2123
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 465 of 531 (868584)
12-14-2019 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 462 by Percy
12-14-2019 5:28 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
How do you justify killing this man?

he attacked multiple people and was wearing a suicide vest, he was an threat to the lives and safety of others.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Percy, posted 12-14-2019 5:28 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by Percy, posted 12-15-2019 9:05 PM DrJones* has responded

  
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