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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Percy
Member
Posts: 19851
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 466 of 531 (868602)
12-14-2019 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by Hyroglyphx
12-13-2019 11:19 AM


[ Content removed to protect privacy. --Admin ]

Edited by Percy, : Content removed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-13-2019 11:19 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-15-2019 9:52 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18532
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 467 of 531 (868627)
12-15-2019 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by Percy
12-14-2019 5:35 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

Knowing through observation or through informing oneself by other means is not the same as thinking, which can include opinions and imaginary things and speculations and so forth.


You said you were speculating about what you knew. Since it was a speculation, it had to be about what they thought they knew.

Percy writes:

If they didn't know the bomb was fake, why did they fire into his chest and abdomen where the bomb was?


As I said, there's little point in speculating about what went through their minds in those few seconds.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Percy, posted 12-14-2019 5:35 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19851
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 468 of 531 (868640)
12-15-2019 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by Hyroglyphx
12-13-2019 11:19 AM


[ Content removed to protect privacy. --Admin ]

Edited by Percy, : Content removed.


This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 19851
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 469 of 531 (868643)
12-15-2019 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by Tangle
12-13-2019 11:24 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Tangle writes:

I have a lot of faith in our criminal justice system - it's man made so it has flaws but it's pretty much the best there is.

I think that a criminal justice system that makes it well nigh impossible to prosecute police who commit murder in the course of duty is typical, maybe even, as you say, the best there is, but it certainly isn't the best we can do.

But I don't know that zero police convictions in the UK is indicative of anything because most of your police are unarmed, so I'm guessing that there's a very tiny sample size, that incidents involving armed police units must be a tiny percentage of all incidents.

If we ask our police to defend us from fundamentalist lunatics that want to kill as many people as they can, as quickly as they can, we have to live with them taking actions like this and support them when they do - until it's proven wrong.

At a minimum, the publicly available evidence at least calls the propriety into question.

Inevitably the outcomes are going to be mixed bag. The best you can hope for is a set of policies that minimize the total number of deaths. Also inevitably, some of those killed will be innocent people at the hands of police. Perfection isn't possible. But if it's okay to shoot unarmed wounded people rolling around on the ground in pain because you think they're a terrorist and a murderer and a suicide bomber, sometimes what you think is going to be wrong.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2019 11:24 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19851
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 470 of 531 (868644)
12-15-2019 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by Tangle
12-14-2019 5:44 PM


Re: Police Should Not Kill Unnecessarily
Tangle writes:

Percy writes:

I don't understand why you continue repeating these untrue statements.

And I don't understand why you can't see that this was a terrorist that had knifed two people - killing both of them - was wearing a (fake) suicide vest and attempting to kill as many more people as he could on the same bridge as one of his compatriots had killed 8 people only 2 years earlier.

This isn't an accurate summary of anything I've said, and I don't understand why you keep doing this.

At the time the suspect was killed only one had died, and unless communication between the EMTs and the police on the bridge was very fast and very efficient, the police didn't know anyone had died at all.

Oh, really? Only one had died so far, well that changes everything. Ffs. Even if they didn't know anyone had died, please show how this matters.

You said that the police were justified in killing the suspect because he was a terrorist who had already killed two people, but at the time they made the decision to kill the suspect the police did not know he was a terrorist or that he had killed anyone. So since they didn't know these things, what were their reasons for deciding to kill him?

Sorry, I'm too angry to read the rest of your armchair crap.

The emotionality's been apparent from the lack of attention to known facts.

This was a terrorist attack in central London - like several before - that by the intervention of some heroic civilians and by very prompt actions by the police saved a lot of lives.

Civilian intervention saved lives. The armed police just showed up at the end, pulled off the passersby, and shot the suspect dead.

I'll wait for the inquest to find the facts.

Sure, but that's no excuse for castigating those noting the questions the videos do manage to raise.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2019 5:44 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19851
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 471 of 531 (868646)
12-15-2019 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by DrJones*
12-14-2019 6:53 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
DrJones* writes:

How do you justify killing this man?

he attacked multiple people and was wearing a suicide vest, he was an threat to the lives and safety of others.

These objections are not new, have in fact been repeated many times and continue to be repeated despite having been rebutted and debunked many times. The suspect was unarmed, defenseless, and at the bottom of a pile of passersby. And the police could not possibly have believed he was wearing a suicide vest else they would not have shot him in the chest and abdomen.

Possibly there are good reasons for shooting the suspect, but no one's offering any. People have instead been repeating the same bad reasons over and over.

One good reason I can think of might be that once the last passersby had been pulled off the suspect that the police could not be sure he was unarmed, that he might have perhaps been carrying more knives somewhere on his person, so when he attempted to rise from the ground, and possibly disobeying orders the police may have given to stay down, they were forced to shoot him.

The videos also raise questions, but the objections to the interpretations I've raised have been so many and so superficial that I haven't had a chance to mention them, but let me mention one now. In one video the police are positioned at very close range, maybe seven feet or so. Did they shoot him once the last passerby was clear? You can't tell from the portion of the video that's been made public. But in another shot the police are aiming at the suspect from about a hundred feet away. Why did they move away? Was it because they suspected a suicide belt? That would make sense, but then why did they fire into his chest and abdomen?

Even for sharpshooters, firing at a distance of a hundred feet straight across a bridge in the middle of a metropolitan area seems very ill advised, so a possible explanation is that all the shots were fired at close range into the chest and abdomen, then police noticed the suicide belt, stopped firing, and moved a safe distance away waiting for the bomb unit. The suspect rolled around on the ground wounded and in pain and bled out before the bomb squad got to him.

But no way to know for sure at this time.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by DrJones*, posted 12-14-2019 6:53 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by DrJones*, posted 12-15-2019 9:34 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2132
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 472 of 531 (868647)
12-15-2019 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by Percy
12-15-2019 9:05 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
And the police could not possibly have believed he was wearing a suicide vest else they would not have shot him in the chest and abdomen.

or they could have believed that he was and shot anyways.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Percy, posted 12-15-2019 9:05 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6060
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 473 of 531 (868648)
12-15-2019 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Percy
12-14-2019 8:51 PM


[ Content removed to protect privacy. --Admin ]

Edited by Admin, : Remove content.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Percy, posted 12-14-2019 8:51 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19851
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 474 of 531 (870222)
01-14-2020 10:08 PM


An off duty Secret Service agent walking home in Brooklyn shot and killed a leashed dog. At first he claimed the dog was not leashed, but the leash is clearly visible in the photo. So the Secret Service changed its story. The dog was on a leash but the leash was not being held by anyone. I await the change in this story, too.

Firing a gun on a New York City street at a dog? Really? This agent should not be carrying a gun. I don’t know what charges he’s vulnerable to, but I hope illegal discharge of a weapon and animal cruelty at a minimum. He should also lose his job. He’s obviously in the wrong profession anyway if he can be spooked by a dog.

Source: Off-duty Secret Service agent shoots and kills dog on a leash in Brooklyn

—Percy


  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3825
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 475 of 531 (870223)
01-15-2020 12:05 AM


Suspect charged in Waseca shooting; officer remains in critical condition
Dated Jan 8, 2020.

quote:
According to the BCA, officers responded to reports of a suspicious man with a flashlight in the backyard of a home in a Waseca neighborhood. When they arrived at the scene, they encountered Janovsky, who had an active warrant against him. Officials said the officers did not know about Janovsky’s warrant at the time.

BCA Superintendent Drew Evans told reporters at a news conference Tuesday that officers shot Janovsky after he shot Matson.


Source

The suspect was non-fatally shot.

Is Percy going to argue that these police officers should not have been armed?

BTW - Cite found via policeman shot in head minnesota search.

Moose

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Forgot to include source link.


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable." - John Kenneth Galbraith

It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn't know what he was talking about. - Paul Krugman (as stolen from Chiroptera's signature)

"My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes" - Ronald Reagan (1984)

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6060
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 476 of 531 (872922)
03-06-2020 6:24 PM


Marquez Shooting Deliberation
Percy brought this up not too long ago as evidence for why police officers shoot not be armed. As you can see from the now released Body Worn Camera footage, it speaks for itself as to what happened.

Marquez was demonstrating a mental health crisis that resulted in her being placed on an Emergency Detention order. When she was advised of this she refused and instead produced a weapon.

Police, after seeing the weapon, retreated downstairs. Marquez then deliberately walks downstairs and points the firearm directly at the officers, thus leaving them with no other option.

I told Percy then that I would not deliberate on a case where all the facts were unknown. The power of the body camera proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the shooting was justified.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by Percy, posted 05-27-2020 9:54 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1152
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 477 of 531 (876740)
05-27-2020 5:47 AM


Not a shooting, but jeez !
Death of US black man in custody sparks clashes

He was unarmed.
He was handcuffed.
He told them he couldn't breathe.
Bystanders told them to get off him.
And for 5 solid minutes, they choked the life out of him.

If these guys (or at the least, the main perpetrator) are not prosecuted and convicted of (at the least) manslaughter, then America is broken as a free and decent country.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19851
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 478 of 531 (876745)
05-27-2020 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 476 by Hyroglyphx
03-06-2020 6:24 PM


Re: Marquez Shooting Deliberation
Hyroglyphx writes:

Police, after seeing the weapon, retreated downstairs. Marquez then deliberately walks downstairs and points the firearm directly at the officers, thus leaving them with no other option.

The video does not appear to show that "she points the firearm directly at the officers." I've queued the video up to the exact right place. You can advance frame-at-a-time using the "." character:

The gun was fake.

The police saw a fake gun, didn't detect that it was fake, and lost sight of the fact that this was a wellness check. They fired twelve rounds at an unarmed person. Did they miss the first eleven times? As we've seen so often, these supposedly highly trained officers were scared out of their wits and just kept firing and firing.

The DA's office determined that officers had properly followed procedures, but I'm sure there's a lot of interpretation involved. I'm confident words like "reasonable" appear many times in those procedures.

If no police had been called, only wellness and health professions, Marquez would still be alive and nobody would have been hurt.

The family is suing Pasadena for $20 million. The city doesn't have a prayer and will settle out of court for an undisclosed sum, probably around $3-$4 million, much more if they properly consider what a jury would conclude after seeing that video frame by frame (that's how I viewed the critical portions), and even more if the city fears a jury could be convinced that Marquez might have been able to work through her problems and return to work at some point.

I'm still waiting for the results of the London Bridge incident investigation. Recent accounts (e.g., London Bridge: What we know) still include a narrative in which the video and image evidence is contradictory. When they find a narrative in which the evidence doesn't contradict itself then I'll begin to believe they're approaching the truth.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-06-2020 6:24 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-09-2020 10:57 AM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19851
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 479 of 531 (876929)
05-30-2020 1:03 PM


Jimmy Kimmel Speaks Out
This isn't about police shootings but police treatment of minorities, a close enough tie-in to be worth posting in this thread:

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by Stile, posted 06-04-2020 9:23 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19851
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 480 of 531 (877066)
06-03-2020 7:25 AM


The Silencing of the Press
With the death of George Floyd, not with a gun but with a knee for eight minutes and forty-six seconds until he expired, this thread seems the best fit for this video.

When a government does not want reported what it is doing they silence the press. Here are a number of examples:

Police are behaving carelessly, indiscriminately, wantonly, egregiously against protesters, not noticing or caring whether any action is required. Now reporters holding microphones and cameras and notebooks have become targets alongside those who merely stand or march in solidarity.

This is not a few bad apples. This is systemic racism and institutional violence. Americans must protest in all ways possible the turning of our country into a police state that targets all those who aren't blessed by accidents of birth with the mark of privilege: whiteness.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by jar, posted 06-03-2020 7:37 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
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